Posted on 02/28/2015 2:38:16 PM PST by SkyPilot
I can’t find any version that is different in meaning, so exactly what version are you using?
Interlinear-Greek to English word for word
7. one moreover to each of us has been given - grace according to the measure of the gift - of Christ 8. Therefore he says Having ascended on high he led captive captivity and gave gifts - to men 9. this moreover he ascended what is it if not that also he descended into the lower regions of the earth
Ephesians 4:7-9 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
7 Each one of us, however, has been given grace to be measured by the Messiah’s bounty. 8 This is why it says,
“After he went up into the heights,
he led captivity captive
and he gave gifts to mankind.”
9 Now this phrase, “he went up,” what can it mean if not that he first went down into the lower parts, that is, the earth?
Ephesians 4:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
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You’re simply reading something into it that is not there.
Captive cannot mean “Heaven” and nobody goes there before the first resurrection anyway.
Captive is still captive.
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None of this discussion has anything to do with Yeshua’s return to Earth. Coming in the cloud is not a return to Earth, that comes 15 days later, after the wedding feast.
Again, there is no church anywhere! Church is a gross mistranslation. It is all about his assembly, which is everyone that will be saved from Adam to the 7th trump.
We all return with him when he comes at the East gate.
You are making fruit salad out of God's word.
The “dark ages” is the rule of the “catholic church” prior to the reformation.
>> “Where in the passage does is suggest that can’t happen on the same day of the Lord?” <<
It would slay the rest of the scriptures! It all has to fit together. Yeshua had already revealed to his disciples that His elect would go through the tribulation.
The mystery of Iniquity is the false teaching that Torah was fulfilled.
Now here is the most deceptive and miserable strawman:
And the bigger question, why would God forsake and turn his back on his children,(He Won't) withdraw the gift of Holy Spirit (nothing says anything about the Holy Spirit, he remasins with us) protection and basically leave them unprotected in the face of the worst persecution in history, leaving them for certain death with no chance of protection or survival? (He promised to protect us in the desert if we obey his commandments) The body of Christ“Church”Assembly being abandoned ( what an imagination!) and subject to the great tribulation clearly goes against the promises God made to his children repeatedly in theChurchepistles.
All of that is the creation of confusion and deception.
He doesn't forsake anyone just cuz he isn't following Satan's big lie of the pre-trib rapture!
His promise is that he will take us to the place in the desert that he has prepared for our protection. That isn't forsaking us. Its the pre-trib lie that goes against all of the word.
“After the Rapture, the world will be in literal chaos.”
Your hit the nail on the head. I don’t think we can realize just how bad it will be once the Church is removed. Think about the speed of it, just 42 months is all mankind can take or else everyone would have died.
Matthew 5:13-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 24:22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Sorry, but you’re wrong again. The OT or Torah has not been cancelled it is being fulfilled (not complete yet).
Matthew 5:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Romans 13:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Galatians 5:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
You didn’t answer which version are you reading from?
Will it ever...
Matthew 5:14 "Ye are the light of the world"
The light will be gone.The salt will be gone.
"You are the salt of the earth..."
and salt is used to restrain the decay of 'meat'
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 14:5)
"Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not." (Malachi 3:16-18)
Psalm 27:5 "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."
“None of this discussion has anything to do with Yeshua’s return to Earth. Coming in the cloud is not a return to Earth, that comes 15 days later, after the wedding feast.”
Christ will be seen by all in the return to Mount Olives as discussed in Revelation, unlike the gathering in the air in Thessalonians where Christ will only be seen by the Saints while the world is left in chaos and confusion. Clearly a different event.
“nothing says anything about the Holy Spirit, he remasins with us”
The Holy Spirit restraining force will be removed as discussed in Thessalonians.
“The body of Christ “Church” Assembly”
OK, I’ll play into your symantics game. Can I say Saints?
“He promised to protect us in the desert if we obey his commandments”
If you presume to be part of the 144,000. The rest who turn to Christ at the time will be persecuted and murdered.
Yes he did say that those alive at the Resurrection would not die but be changed to uncorruptible spiritual bodies,
If you take the trouble to read all the accounts of the “gathering in the air” you will find that it is the one that the whole world sees, with great dread.
His later return to the ground at the mount of olives will only be witnessed by the military forces that he defeats.
Nothing in Thessalonians has anything to do with the Holy Spirit, and he will certainly not be removed before all the elect are removed at the last trump, the end of the trib.
The gathering in the air is what ends the trib!
Satan’s removal from the presence of the Father where he accuses the bretheren is what is spoken of in Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.
Do you think the Philadelphian church was the 144 thousand?
He told them that he would protect them.
You are buying into much contrived nonsense! Especially Satan’s pre-trib rapture.
If you read the account of the gathering in the air in Revelation, you will see that it is what shocks the entire world, all of whom will be forced to witness it.
The dispys play games with clips of scripture that they think they can twist enough to create a pre-trib rapture, but taking the word of God as a whole undivided communication destroys all of their mischief nicely.
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I see nothing wrong with that, and I don’t think your criticism is valid.
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If we do not “sleep” and continue to live, we do not die.
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>> “After the Rapture, the world will be in literal chaos” <<
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Immediately after the “rapture” the world will be subject to the seven bowl judgements; then Yeshua returns to Earth with his angels and the elect to do battle at Jerusalem, and defeat the governments of men.
Chaos is a severe understatement; people will be gnashing their teeth and chewing their own tongues in fear.
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I try to stick with the KJV when possible, due to the wealth of helps, concordances, etc that have been published over the three centuries that it has been available.
It is the best translation in English, although the 1965-1966 edition of the “Amplified Bible” is also useful for understanding the words more completely.
Later versions of the Amplified are of course absolutely worthless due to the deliberate corruption of the basic Bible version they use in the later editions.
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>> “Sorry, but you’re wrong again. The OT or Torah has not been cancelled it is being fulfilled (not complete yet).” <<
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You seem to be easily confused! I have never said that Torah has been ‘cancelled.’ (almost anyone here can attest to that)
I said that the “Mystery of Iniquity” is Paul’s name for the false teaching that Torah was fulfilled and thus cancelled.
The quotes that you offer are excellent in that regard, except for the poor wording of Galatians 5:14, whjich should read ‘contained,’ rather than fulfilled. There are five significant Torah events among Yehova’s appointed times that are definitely not fulfilled.
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“If you take the trouble to read all the accounts of the “gathering in the air” you will find that it is the one that the whole world sees, with great dread.”
Mount Olives meeting in the air in the twinkling of an eye?
Matthew 25:32:
“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats”
If we do not “sleep” and continue to live, we do not die.
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If you die, you sleep, until the last trump!
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Your theology is an absolute mess.
Nobody but the armies that Yeshua defeats see his entry at the mount. 15 days before that, when we meet Yeshua and his angels in the cloud, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, the whole world is forced to witness it. The first resurrection.
Try to confuse it, it only affects the goats that do not wish to see anything but a never to happen “pre-trib rapture! Their turn will be the Great White Throne, 1000 years later.
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“Your theology is an absolute mess. Nobody but the armies that Yeshua defeats see his entry at the mount. 15 days before that, when we meet Yeshua and his angels in the cloud,”
So says the one who twists scripture trying and make square pegs fit round holes to support yours. The Sheep still being on earth, gathered from the four corners and separated from the goats are not gathered in the air in this event, as stated in scripture they’re separated on earth. If they were raptured 15 days before only goats would remain.
So I say good luck sweating out the end times and your pending persecution if you so believe.
You’re not by any chance one of those guys in the business of selling tribulation survival kits?
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