As to your question: all mediation between God and man is done by Jesus alone... but Jesus Himself enacts that mediation through His Body, which is the Church. The extent to which we can mediate for one another is precisely the extent to which we are incorporated in the Body of Christ. Uh. No. There is one mediator between God and Man...
"5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."
One mediator between God and Man. Mankind is part of the body of Christ (at least those who are saved by grace through faith) -- so those who are receiving mediation by Christ cannot extend mediation to another that Christ alone can give!
James 2 has been misquoted and twisted by Rome. Faith saves. Works are a result of faith. Again, let's visit the thief on the cross. What works had he done? He was being crucified to death for being a thief! I don't think that qualifies as what Rome considers "saving works." His FAITH saved him. Faith provided to him from above.
You just need to deal with it and READ the Bible for yourself!
I have, I assure you... many times over.
Well, you need to keep reading it over and over and over. And praying for the Holy Spirit to open your heart, eyes and mind to God's truth.
She was in need of a savior; but she was not a sinner.
Really? If she was sinless, she needed no savior. Only sinners need to be saved....how about Romans 3 --
"21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."
Re-read that passage. Catch the part(s) about justification by faith apart from works of the law? That Christ is put forth as a propitiation by his blood for us to receive by faith? What about faith and works? If it's so essential, why is it that it doesn't appear every time faith is mentioned?
Because works don't save. They don't add to our salvation. Faith saves...
(?!) Pardon? Why do you say that omniscience is required in order to intercede for someone? Neither logic nor Scripture say anything of the sort.
Really?? How does Mary hear the prayer of millions of "faithful Catholics" every single day? Only God is capable of that! Logic nor scripture say anything of the sort about Mary being a mediatrix, sinless, assumed bodily to Heaven -- the Catholic Cult speaks of it in scripture's silence and calls it "Holy Tradition." But it's NOT scriptural. It's made out of whole cloth.
So... instead of all the other sturm and drang, explain how a sole mediator can have subordinate mediators? Explain how "one mediator between God and Man" becomes multiple mediators? Or even one other mediator in the person of a created sinner saved by grace named Mary? You're asking me to define mediator -- I asked you how you reconcile one vs. many? Define "one" -- and then try to explain in some tortured manner that "one" is not one but many....
Waiting...
Hoss
[paladinan]
As to your question: all mediation between God and man is done by Jesus alone... but Jesus Himself enacts that mediation through His Body, which is the Church. The extent to which we can mediate for one another is precisely the extent to which we are incorporated in the Body of Christ.
[HossB86]
Uh. No. There is one mediator between God and Man.
...just as "there is
none righteous...
not one" (Romans 3:10)--unless you count St. John the Baptist (Mark 6:20); his parents, Sts. Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:6), St. Simeon (Luke 2:25), Joseph of Arimathea (Luke 23:50), and so on. "None" means "none", after all... right? (See
here for the Greek analysis of the words--they're all the very same word, "dikaios", with varying case endings for varying parts of speech.)
...just as "
all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)--unless you count unborn children (including those at the zygote and blastocyst stages), infants, children below the age of reason, adults with severe mental disabilities, etc. "All" means "all", after all... right?
... just as we are to "call
no man on earth your father" (Matthew 23:9)--unless you count St. Paul ("For
I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." [1 Corinthians 4:15]), St. Stephen ("Brethren
and fathers, hear me [...]"), or the Lord Jesus, in a parable of His ("Father Abraham, have mercy upon me..." [Luke 16:24]). "No man" means "no man", after all... right?
Now... are you going to supply me with some tortured explanation of how these words don't mean what they say? ;)
One mediator between God and Man. Mankind is part of the body of Christ (at least those who are saved by grace through faith)
But not faith ALONE. Just saying. :)
so those who are receiving mediation by Christ cannot extend mediation to another that Christ alone can give!
All right: there's the initial assertion. Now: why not? To my ears, that sounds analogous to someone saying, "Jesus can't pray to anyone, because He's God." What is there in the intrinsic nature of those who are receiving mediation that they CANNOT extend mediation (albeit a subordinate one)?
James 2 has been misquoted and twisted by Rome.
Easily said, not easily proven, FRiend...
Faith saves.
Of course, it does! Every faithful, well-informed Catholic knows and believes that incontrovertible fact. But faith ALONE does not save... or else St. James (along with the Holy Spirit) is simply lying in James 2, which I--for one--refuse to believe.
Works are a result of faith.
Yes, and no... but they're certainly not "dispensible" re: justification and salvation. Faith without works is dead, and we are justified by works--NOT by faith ALONE. (I suppose I should check: do you have James 2:24 in your Bible? What are the words, exactly?)
Again, let's visit the thief on the cross. What works had he done? He was being crucified to death for being a thief! I don't think that qualifies as what Rome considers "saving works."
Of course not! Sins are not "saving works". But St. Dismas's case was an extraordinary situation, as
I discussed in the thread about 'sola Scriptura'; in cases where only a short time is available, "works" can be as humble as the effort needed to endure one's suffering patiently for the sake of Christ, or to choose to trust Him with everything you have. ("Believe" is a *verb*, after all... it's a "work", albeit one which ordinarily requires corporal or spiritual works of mercy to accompany it in order for it to be "alive and saving", cf. James 2, Matthew 25, etc.)
His FAITH saved him. Faith provided to him from above.
That's true... but not faith ALONE. His ability to "act" was severely limited... but he did what he could. (If anyone suggests that bearing one's sufferings patiently is neither hard nor meritorious, I'd ask them to think again. Come to think of it, Protestantism really doesn't know what to do with suffering, in general. Count the number of times you've heard a Protestant pastor or speak expound on Colossians 1:24, for example, to see what I mean.)
Well, you need to keep reading it over and over and over. And praying for the Holy Spirit to open your heart, eyes and mind to God's truth.
:) ...and I should do that because I don't yet agree with you? I assure you, the practice of praying for light when reading the Scriptures is something Catholics have done for at least 1400-1500 years before Protestantism ever came to be. I do so; my wife (who's far holier than I) does so. I do plan to keep reading it, over and over (I'd have done that, even if I'd never met you online), and I do plan to keep praying for light, over and over... if that makes you feel better!
[paladinan]
She was in need of a savior; but she was not a sinner.
[HossB86]
Really? If she was sinless, she needed no savior.
That does not follow. "Saving" by redemption and forgiveness is one method; but "saving" by
prevention is another (albeit one unique to the Blessed Virgin). If you were to stop a burglar from shooting me, I'd be just as eager to thank you for "saving my life" as I would be if you'd been a surgeon who operated successfully on me AFTER I'd been shot by that burglar.
how about Romans 3
See above.
"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."
Re-read that passage. Catch the part(s) about justification by faith apart from works of the law?
Yes. You might jump over and catch my comment about
that referring to the "Law" (Mitzvot) of the Old Covenant, on the "sola Scriptura" thread.
That Christ is put forth as a propitiation by his blood for us to receive by faith? What about faith and works? If it's so essential, why is it that it doesn't appear every time faith is mentioned?
Come, now... that's a mere fallacy of appeal to silence, which doesn't fly. One mention (e.g. James 2, Matthew 25, Revelation in multiple places about being judged by works/deeds) is worth a million silences. In fact, as an exercise: look at every last reference to the Bible talking about the final judgment... and see what criteria are used to judge those who stand before God. Hint: it always involves something which St. James emphasizes...
Because works don't save.
Not ALONE, no... since that would be the heretical idea of Pelagianism (condemned by the Catholic Church, almost a thousand years before Luther was born). I'd gently suggest that the word "alone" is what causes most of the trouble in Protestant theology...
They don't add to our salvation.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Salvation is a boolean value (true/false), not a graduated scale; how can anything "add" to it, in any way?
Faith saves.
It does. It just doesn't save ALONE. (Haven't I said that before?)
[paladinan]
(?!) Pardon? Why do you say that omniscience is required in order to intercede for someone? Neither logic nor Scripture say anything of the sort.
[HossB86]
Really?? How does Mary hear the prayer of millions of "faithful Catholics" every single day? Only God is capable of that!
Heaven is in eternity (i.e. outside of time), not in time; eternity is not simply "an infinite string of years", but it's completely OUTSIDE of time altogether. No one in eternity "waits" for anything, or "remembers" anything; everything is present in one, absolute "NOW". To suggest that omniscience is needed to address more than one concern from Heaven is akin to saying that omniscience is needed to play more than one note on a piano at the same time; one who is ABOVE and BEYOND the flow of time has all eternity in which to contemplate each and every concern. There's no "rush" or danger of being "overwhelmed".
Logic nor scripture say anything of the sort about Mary being a mediatrix, sinless, assumed bodily to Heaven -- the Catholic Cult speaks of it in scripture's silence and calls it "Holy Tradition." But it's NOT scriptural. It's made out of whole cloth.
Now, I have to stop you, here: in your defense of "faith alone", you appealed to the silence of Scripture (despite St. James saying that we are NOT justified by faith alone--which is as clear a condemnation of the idea as anyone would like... but I digress); but now, you object to it here? Where does Scripture ever mention even one sin of the Blessed Virgin? Plenty of sins were mentioned regarding the other disciples, yes? Put your money where your mouth, is, then, and show me where Scripture highlights any sin on her part. Otherwise, you're left with mere opinion and speculation, based on a hyper-fastidious reading of verses which are plainly not to be taken at reductionist face-value. You might as well look for a fresh coat of varnish on Jesus when He called Himself a "gate" (cf. John 10:9)!
So... instead of all the other sturm and drang,
:) Full points for drama, double points for drama in a foreign language!
explain how a sole mediator can have subordinate mediators?
See above, re: "call no man father", "no one is righetous", "all have sinned".
You're asking me to define mediator
I am. Are you going to take me up on that?
I asked you how you reconcile one vs. many?
See above.
Define "one" -- and then try to explain in some tortured manner that "one" is not one but many..."
:) "Tortured." Now, where have I heard that, before...?
Waiting...
I commend your patience! (Real life intrudes again, right now, in fact. Back when I have time...!) Hoss