Sola Scriptura

The John Ankerberg Show ^ | Feb.11,2015 | James McCarthy;

[RnMomof7]

Sola Scriptura

Today, even as in the time of the Reformation, thousands of Catholics worldwide are leaving Roman Catholicism for biblical Christianity. And once again, the rallying cry of the sixteenth century, Sola Scriptura, Scripture Alone, is being heard.

Roman Catholic defenders have responded to this challenge by going on the offen­sive. A typical argument sounds something like this:

The Bible cannot be the sole rule of faith, because the first Christians didn’t have the New Testament. Initially, Tradition, the oral teachings of the apostles, was the Church’s rule of faith. The New Testament came later when a portion of Tradition was put to writing. It was the Roman Catholic Church that produced the New Testament, and it was the Church that infallibly told us what books belong in the Bible. It is the Church, therefore, that is the authoritative teacher of Scripture. Sola Scriptura is not even taught in the Bible. The rule of faith of the Roman Catholic Church, therefore, is rightly Scripture and Tradition together.

Christians confronted with such arguments should keep the following points in mind:

Christians have never been without the Scriptures as their rule of faith.

The unforgettable experience of two early disciples shows the fallacy of thinking that the first Christians were ever without Scripture as their rule of faith. Three days after the crucifixion, two of Jesus’ disciples were walking home. A fellow traveler, whom they took for a stranger, joined them along the way. The conversation quickly turned to the events that had just taken place in Jerusalem. With deep sorrow, the disciples told the story of how the chief priests and rulers of the nation had sentenced Jesus to death and had Him crucified by the civil authorities.

To the disciples’ shock, the stranger rebuked them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!” (Luke 24:25, NIV). Then begin­ning with Moses and proceeding through the prophets, the stranger explained to them the truths concerning Jesus in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Eventually the two disciples realized that their fellow traveler was no stranger at all but the Lord Jesus Himself! Later they recalled, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?” (Luke 24:32).

The experience of those two early disciples was not unique. With the Holy Spirit’s coming at Pentecost, and with the aid of the apostles’ teaching, Jewish Christians rediscov­ered their own Scriptures. Their common conviction was that the Old Testament, properly understood, was a revelation of Christ. There they found a prophetic record of Jesus’ life, teaching, death, and resurrection.

The Old Testament Scriptures served as the standard of truth for the infant church, Jew and Gentile alike. Within a short time, the New Testament Scriptures took their place alongside those of the Old Testament. Consequently, the early church was never without the written Word of God.

Scripture is not simply written Tradition.

Roman Catholic descriptions of the origin of the New Testament stress that the oral teachings of the apostles, Tradition, preceded the written record of those teachings, Scrip­ture. Often the New Testament is presented as little more than a written record of Tradition, the writer’s recollections, and a partial explanation of Christ’s teaching. This, of course, elevates Tradition to the same level of authority as Scripture—or, more precisely, drops Scripture to the level of Tradition.

But the New Testament Scriptures are much more than a written record of the oral teaching of the apostles; they are an inspired record. A biblical understanding of inspiration makes clear the significance of this distinction. Peter writes,

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21 (NIV)

Here we see that Scripture is not “the prophet’s own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20, NIV). The word translated “interpretation” means to solve or to explain. Peter is saying that no writer of the New Testament simply recorded his own explanation of what he had heard Jesus teach and had seen Him do. Scripture does not have “its origin in the will of man” (2 Peter 1:21, NIV). The writers of the Bible did not decide that they would write a prophetic record or what would be included in Scripture. Rather, they were “carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21, NIV).

The word translated here “carried along” is found in the New Testament in Mark 2:3. There it is used with reference to the paralytic whose friends carried him to Jesus for heal­ing. Just as the paralytic did not walk by his own power, a true prophet does not write by his own impulse. He is “carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21, NIV). Men wrote the New Testament; “men spoke” (2 Peter 1:21, NIV). Their writings reflect their individual personalities and experiences. But these “men spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:21). Men wrote but God was the author.

For these reasons, Scripture is revelation perfectly communicated in God-given words:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)

The phrase “inspired by God” is the translation of a compound term made up of the words God and to breathe. The verse can be translated: “All Scripture is God-breathed. . . “(2 Timothy 3:16, NIV). Scripture is therefore rightly called the Word of God.

In reducing Scripture to simply written Tradition, Catholic proponents are able to boost the importance of Tradition. But in doing so, they distort the meaning of inspiration and minimize the primary difference between Scripture and Tradition.

The Bible contains all essential revelation.

It is true that the New Testament does not contain a record of everything that Jesus did. John makes this clear in the conclusion of his gospel:

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books which were written. John 21:25

John’s point in concluding his gospel with this comment was to acknowledge that the life of the Lord Jesus was far too wonderful to be fully contained in any book. He was not commenting on the general purpose of Scripture or the need for Tradition. Neither was he implying that he had left out of his book essential revelation received from Christ. Indeed, earlier in his gospel, John implies the opposite:

Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:30-31

We can infer from this statement that John included in his gospel all the essential teachings of Christ necessary for salvation. Significantly, he makes no reference to seven sacraments, the Sacrifice of the Mass, sanctifying grace, penance, purgatory, or an institu­tion such as the Roman Catholic Church—all necessary for salvation according to Roman Catholicism.

The Scriptures achieve their stated purpose: “that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:17 NIV). They are the perfect guide to the Christian faith. Unlike Tradition, the Scriptures are accessible and open to all. Translations of the entire Bible have been made into the primary languages of the world, 276 in total. It is the most widely distributed and read book in all of history.

To define Roman Catholic Tradition as a font of extra-biblical revelation is to add to God’s Word. Scripture warns us “not to exceed what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6). “Do not add to His words lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6). The last book of the New Testament ends with this solemn warning:

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

At question is the authority of Tradition, not Scripture.

There are hundreds of verses in the Bible establishing the truth that the Word of God is the church’s sufficient and supreme rule of faith. Psalm 119 alone dedicates 176 verses to the unparalleled value of God’s Word. The Lord Jesus taught:

Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

Though Scriptures can be multiplied on this theme, it is not necessary to do so. The Roman Catholic Church agrees that the Bible teaches that the Word of God is the supreme rule of faith and that all theology must rest upon it. There is no question as to the suffi­ciency or authority of the Word of God.

The controversy revolves around the identity of God’s Word. Namely, is the Word of God Scripture and Tradition? Or, is the Word of God Scripture alone?

In the ongoing debate, Roman Catholic proponents enjoy taking the offensive by challenging non-Catholics to prove that God intended that the Scriptures alone were to serve as the church’s rule of faith. “Where does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura?” they demand.

Though this tactic is effective in putting their opponents on the defensive, it is in fact misleading. Both sides agree that the Scriptures are the Word of God and that as such they speak with divine authority. The Lord Jesus Himself, in John 10:35, clearly identifies the Word of God as Scripture.

The point of controversy is Tradition. The Roman Catholic Church asserts that Tradi­tion is also the Word of God.

The question which the Roman Catholic Church must answer, therefore, is: Where does Jesus, the prophets, or the apostles teach that Tradition is the Word of God? Or, more precisely: Where in the Bible can it be found that Scripture and Tradition together, as interpreted by the pope and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, are to be the church’s rule of faith? This is what Roman Catholicism is really asserting and should be the topic of debate. And since the Roman Catholic Church is the one asserting the authority of Tradi­tion and the Magesterium, the burden of proof lies with Rome.

Adapted from The Gospel According to Rome (Harvest House Publishers: Eugene, 1995).

Notes

1. Compare: Second Vatican Council, “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation,” no. 19.
2. Patrick Johnstone, Operation World (Grand Rapids, MIchigan: Zondervan, 1993), p. 22.
3. Second Vatican Council, “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation,” no. 21 and no. 24.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Presbyterian Assembly recognizes gay marriage....
Evangelicals with gay children challenge church
Woman sues church over gay marriage

They're not doing Sola Scriptura right?

[verga]

Verga's corollary to Godwin's law: a prot will; bring up sexual abuse charges against the Catholic Church at the drop of a hat.

Catholics take the win again.

Listen take a little time do some investigation and you will see that Catholic Clergy and public school teachers are among the LOWEST statistically when it come to child abuse. The highest rate is among parents, specifically fathers.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good hate.

[verga]

Like all prots they claim they are. I think we need to change the name form SS to proof text scriptura.

[WVKayaker]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good hate.

It hasn't stopped you, yet!

You have presented no facts to dispute the premise of the article, so your attempts at diversion are puerile at best, as an attempt to hijack and divert from the truths presented/

SOS/DD!!!!

[verga]

Proof texting scriptura has been disproved many times, no need to rehash it.

Mark 8:18 Do you have eyes, but fail to see? Do you have ears, but fail to hear? Don't you remember?

[paladinan]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies.

:) I'm very glad they came acorss that way! (Some of the conversations I've had on this forum quickly wheeled into acrimony, for reasons about which I can only guess.)

On this forum I once had a militant Catholic explain to me that Catholics are not Christians

Oh, for the love of all that's holy...! I hope you can believe that the fellow was misguided, to say the least!

but he made the case that the Catholic Church, the sacraments of the church, and the guidance of the pope are required for salvation.

As for those three things:

In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved. The only thing is that their salvation would be due to the Catholic Church, whether they were aware of it or not.

The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.

I defer to Billy Graham who once said that if you were to find yourself on a desert island and then accept Jesus as your savior then you’d be saved.

Rev. Graham is a fine and admirable man of God, and I think very highly of him; and he's somewhat right: but the word "saved" is a bit loaded. The best way to describe the state of a Christian is that he/she *has* been saved (cf. Ephesians 4:2-8, etc.), AND that he/she *is being* saved (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Peter 3:21, etc.), AND that he/she *hopes ultimately to be saved* (cf. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, etc.) It's not a "one-time" event; it extends through our entire lives (whether that life extends for 30 more years, or 30 more seconds).

He also went on to say that if someone believes that a person who is on a desert island and who comes to Jesus will then be condemned to Hell because she didn’t perform some ritual or go to a particular church...well, then that person is worshipping the wrong god!

That was covered above, in a sense; the "rituals" themselves are important, but NOT for their own sake. Take Baptism, for example: some people might see it as a "mere ritual" which (though they might not find it bad) is unnecessary... but we believe it's important for the key reason that Jesus, Himself, INSTITUTED it (John 3:5 and 3:22 and 4:1, etc.), and He also COMMANDED us to baptize (Matthew 28:19), and it was made clear that salvation was TIED to it (cf. Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38-41 and 8:36-38, etc.). The same is true of all the other Sacraments... and the "rituals" surrounding them are not meaningless. (A study of the OT, and how it illuminates the NT, shows this at almost every turn; e.g. the prohibition against the Passover lamb's bones being broken prefigured Christ's death on the cross without having His legs broken; when the Israelites grumbled against God and Moses a second time about water, and Moses struck the rock to get water after God had explicitly commanded him to SPEAK to the rock [and not hit it, since he'd done so once before], this defigured the prefigurement of Christ (the Rock, from whose side flowed blood and water), who was killed ONCE, not twice... and that disfigurement was so important that Moses was forbidden to enter the promised land. The examples are all over the place!)

“The vilest offender who truly believes that moment from Jesus a pardon receives!”

Yes (though "believe" is a "pregnant" word). And if that person only has a few moments to live, God will supply what's lacking (as in the case of St. Dismas, the "good thief"). But if that person has an extended life ahead of him, then that "belief" must take flesh (just as Jesus "took flesh") and be put into obedience (cf. Luke 6:46, John 3:36, etc.) and into good works (cf. 1 Corinthians 13, James 2, Matthew 25, etc.).

That wonderful line refers to the man on the cross next to Jesus whom Jesus personally redeemed. That man never went to a Catholic Church and he never needed to.

Well... he went to the HEAD of the Church, so I think that qualifies! :)

His salvation was literally by faith alone.

Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).

[MeganC]

About the salvation of the thief not being by faith alone - what about the Centurion? The Centurion absolutely was not a Christian or a Catholic yet his faith (as Jesus Himself called it) was instrumental in the commission of a Miracle.

[paladinan]

Er... you’re equating “gay marriage” and “gay adoption” with “sexual assault on children”?

In a loose sense, it’s abusive (since forcing children to grow up guided by those with sexual disorders is abusive, by definition); but they’re no moral parity between them.

Translated: you’re grasping at straws, and you’re incorrect.

[metmom]

Actually not.

Many of those liberal mainline denominations have abandoned the integrity of Scripture altogether.

They teach things like creation is a myth and so is Adam and Eve. Pretty close to what Catholicism is teaching.....

[metmom]

In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved.

Not so. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church.

One becomes part of the body of Christ when they are saved, but that is not by default becoming part of any denomination.

The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.

That's not Scriptural in the least. There is not one verse in Scripture that supports that.

On the contrary, the grace of God is LAVISHED on us through faith.

Ephesians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

John 1:14-17 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).

The church supplies nothing for attaining spiritual life.

Salvation is a gift freely given and guaranteed.

When a person believes and is saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:

2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων

The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.

The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”

The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”

[CynicalBear]

Well done and spot on!!!

[paladinan]

[paladinan]
In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved.

[metmom]
Not so. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church.

Why do you keep drawing an "either/or" line through the middle of things? Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His Church. It's HIS Church, not some random collection of people; He instituted it for that very reason!

One becomes part of the body of Christ when they are saved, but that is not by default becoming part of any denomination.

"Denominations" should never have existed; the Body of Christ and the Bride, the Church, is meant to be ONE, and it's a scandal that people have fragmented it and divorced themselves from the Bride of Christ. And as for "saved", see my post at #746; the Protestant idea of "once-saved, always-saved" is unbiblical (all the references to "being saved" and "will be saved, if you endure to the end" would be nonsense, otherwise), contradicts Church history and tradition, and it flies in the face of common sense and logic. In short: it's not true, and it was made up out of whole cloth. You need to pick a posuition which fits ALL of Scripture, not just the parts on which certain non-Catholic pastors prefer to teach.

[paladin]
The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.

[metmom]
That's not Scriptural in the least.

They're not SOLA-Scriptural... but that's hardly a problem, since "sola Scriptura" is provably false, anyway.

There is not one verse in Scripture that supports that.

No? Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon? (It was on this very thread; I'm not forcing you to search all of FR!) I'll type it again, if I must, but I'd really rather you remember it the first time, or at least scroll back and search...

Here are a few of the references, just for the time being... but I really would appreciate it if you'd go back to read my previous explanations. Recycling through the same objections is wearying, but it's especially so on teh very same thread!:

Necessity of Baptism: John 3:5, Matthew 28:19, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:36-38, etc.

Necessity of Confession: John 20:21-23 (if your sins are not forgiven, do you think you can be saved?)

Necessity of the Holy Eucharist: all of John 6, 1 Corinthians 11 23-30, etc.

Anointing of the Sick: James 5:14-20

On the contrary, the grace of God is LAVISHED on us through faith.

...and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you? There's your "either/or" impulse, again. And do remember that it's not "lavished on us" by faith ALONE. Had you deleted the words "on the contrary", I could have agreed with you, 100%.

[paladinan]
Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).

[metmom]
The church supplies nothing for attaining spiritual life.

Where in the Bible does it say this, clearly and unambiguously? (And to save precious time: please do not waste time by citing lots and lots of verses describing how spiritual gifts are through Christ, or through faith, or through grace; your job is to prove, from the Bible alone, that (despite 2000 years of history and Tradition which says otherwise) the Church is NOT the vehicle through which Jesus dispenses His grace and spiritual gifts. Don't do the artificial "either/or" thing.)

Salvation is a gift freely given and guaranteed.

Salvation is a gift freely given, yes. It is NOT guaranteed, at least until someone dies in a state of sanctifying grace and actually IS saved "once and for all". No living, breathing person who's still on earth is "guaranteed salvation".

When a person believes and is saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

First, the verse doesn't say "UNTIL the day of redemption"; even in the KJV, it says "UNTO the day [etc.]", which is more appropriately translated "FOR the day [etc.]". Second, see above, re: the mistaken idea of "saved".

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Right. And that's the very same Jesus Who said (twice, in the same Gospel) that "he who endures to the end will be saved"--the very same Jesus Who commissioned St. Paul to say, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12). As I mentioned repeatedly, on this thread alone: "believe" is a "pregnant" word which contains far more than mere assent of the mind. It involves obedience, primarily (see John 3:36: the opposite of "believe" is NOT "disbelieve"... but rather, "disOBEY").

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

First, see notes on "believe", above. Second, notice that there's nothing about no one being able to JUMP out of the Father's Hand? We cannot be damned by anything done by anyone else; but we can be damned by rejecting God and His Will (by sin).

1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes... the very same St. Paul who wrote "but to us who are being saved", only 10 verses later... and who wrote "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (is that a light matter, do you think?), and who wrote, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall", all in the same letter. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Right... as a guarantee of His faithfulness. Nowhere does he say that it's a guarantee of ultimate salvation; we can still throw that away. In the very same letter, he writes: "Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain." If someone accepts the grace of God at ALL, how can it be in vain? Only if they neglect it and fail to appropriate it... and those who do so will not be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

See above.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Right... a few chapters before he says, "Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them [...]". This is also the same St. Paul who wrote what I mentioned above. All these verse need to hang together... including the ones which speak against "once-saved, always saved"; we can't just have a battle of "Hey, I have 10 verses for my position, and you only have 5, so I win!" Either the whole Bible stands together, or it falls.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Right. So, think this through: what happens to those who DO grieve the Holy Spirit? And if it's impossible, why does St. Paul warn against it? (I don't go around warning people against square circles, and such... and I hope the reason is obvious!)

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Right... IF we repent, turn away from those sins, ACCEPT His forgiveness, and cooperate with His grace (as best we can) to avoid those sins in the future. In the same letter, he writes: "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you once walked, when you lived in them. But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth." Again: why warn people away from these things, if the wrath of God is no longer a worry for them?

As a side-note: how does sola Scriptura handle a very intriguing passage in the same letter?

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, that is, the church,[...]" (Colossians 1:24)

In your opinion, what is LACKING in the sufferings of Christ? Just curious.

You get the idea? There are three persistent problems with all your quotes:

1) Your interpretation of them is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

2) Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that your interpretation is infallible

3) In order to hold to your interpretation of these verses, you need to ignore or contradict many other verses which say the very opposite.

I don't mean to ignore your hard work with the Greek etymology (thank you for going to the effort), but: surely you see the problem? Nowhere in Scripture does it say that you chose the correct Greek lexicon (and that the author of that lexicon is infallible); and you're relying on guesses and probabilities (I chatted with SR about this, earlier)... which is hardly secure when trying to establish a "guarantee" of anything (whetehr salvation or sufficiency of a 66-book "sola Scriptura", etc.). Almost all of the words used (in this case and others) have primary meanings, then secondary, then tertiary, then quaternary, etc... and simply grabbing what one lexicon says is the primary meaning is hardly a guarantee of anything. Surely you see that?

[CynicalBear]

>>Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His Church shed blood.<<

There, fixed it for you. Not once in scripture does it say through a church.

>>Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon?<<

Repeating the twisting of scripture by the Catholic Church doesn't change the fact that it's still twisted and in error.

>>...and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you?<<

They amount to pagan rituals, no more.

>>Where in the Bible does it say this, clearly and unambiguously?<<

Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. "churches" do nothing as far as salvation is concerned and most of them inhibit it just as the Catholic Church does.

>>No living, breathing person who's still on earth is "guaranteed salvation".<<

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Looks pretty solid to me.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

That give is a present tense verb, not future. The Father has given, not will give. It's a done deal paladinan. With the guarantee of the Holy Spirit until the redemption. We can trust God's promise and guarantee don't you think?

[paladinan]

Sorry for the delay; I just noticed this one (before the "page break" in the forum)!

About the salvation of the thief not being by faith alone - what about the Centurion? The Centurion absolutely was not a Christian or a Catholic yet his faith (as Jesus Himself called it) was instrumental in the commission of a Miracle.

It was... and certainly, faith is critically important, and it's sufficient for SOME things. My point is that "faith ALONE" (especially in the Luther-esque sense of "apart from all works whatsoever") is not sufficient for justification or salvation.

As an aside: Sacred Tradition doesn't specify what happens to the Centurion in that story, but "tradition" (with a SMALL "t"--i.e. a plausible theory, based on the writings of the Church Fathers) suggests that the Centurion converted to Christianity, and is now a Saint (though not formally recognized among the canonized).

[paladinan]

Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His shed blood. There, fixed it for you. Not once in scripture does it say through a church.

And where does it say in Scripture that something needs to be in Scripture in order to be believed? Aren't you the one who kept calling "straw man" whenever I suggested that you (and others of like mind) thought "sola Scriptura" entitled you to dismiss anything which isn't explicitly found in the 66-book Protestant Bible? Beyond that, see my comment at #730, re: the role of the Church.

[paladinan]
Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon?

[CynicalBear]
Repeating the twisting of scripture by the Catholic Church doesn't change the fact that it's still twisted and in error.

And asserting a baseless claim, over and over, does not change the fact that it's baseless. I understand that "the Catholic Church is twisting Scripture" is your personal opinion. Fine. But if you want to assert it as "truth" (and not merely a reflection of your personal tastes), you'll need to prove it. As the saying goes: you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

[paladinan]
and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you?

[CynicalBear]
They amount to pagan rituals, no more.

Chapter and verse, please? Or is this another mere opinion? See my comment, above.

Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. "churches" do nothing as far as salvation is concerned and most of them inhibit it just as the Catholic Church does.

There's an obvious distinction between the "Churches" mentioned in Revelation and in the writings of St. Paul (we'd call them "dioceses", or "bishoprics"), and "the Church" (singular) which Christ promised to build in Matthew 16:18, and which has legislative and judicial authority (Matthew 18:17). Apples and oranges, FRiend.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Looks pretty solid to me.

"He who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:22, repeated verbatim in Matthew 24:13) That looks pretty solid to me. Also: having a guaranteed inheritance doesn't logically require that the heir will actually CLAIM it; sin does, in fact, separate us from God, and some people (sadly) choose a mess o' pottage instead of their birthright.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

That give is a present tense verb, not future.

Okay... just as you can "give" me an indestructible gem. What's stopping me from freely choosing to throw it away? Re: "not snatching", see my reply to metmom.

The Father has given, not will give. It's a done deal paladinan.

In one sense, yes: the Father's offer is irrevocable. But our acceptance of it is NOT irrevocable; we can still fall away (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:12, Hebrews 3:12, Hebrews 6:4-6, etc.)

With the guarantee of the Holy Spirit until the redemption. We can trust God's promise and guarantee don't you think?

We can trust His free offer, absolutely. It's the other side of the equation (i.e. OUR side, where we can use our free will to reject Him in favor of lesser things) that isn't so trustworthy. Don't mistake me: I don't say that we need to live in fear and/or despair; I merely say that any idea of "once-saved-always-saved, no matter what sins I commit" is a fiction and a grave mistake.

[MeganC]

Well then, I suppose where we stand after all of this is that my salvation is assured and yours isn’t unless you continue to satisfy your obligations.

The key semantic difference here is that I act a certain *because* I’ve been saved and you act a certain way in *hopes* of being saved.

If I die today I will be with Jesus. I pray you would be so blessed.

- Megan