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To: MeganC
Thank you for your thoughtful replies.

:) I'm very glad they came acorss that way! (Some of the conversations I've had on this forum quickly wheeled into acrimony, for reasons about which I can only guess.)

On this forum I once had a militant Catholic explain to me that Catholics are not Christians

Oh, for the love of all that's holy...! I hope you can believe that the fellow was misguided, to say the least!

but he made the case that the Catholic Church, the sacraments of the church, and the guidance of the pope are required for salvation.

As for those three things:

In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved. The only thing is that their salvation would be due to the Catholic Church, whether they were aware of it or not.

The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.

I defer to Billy Graham who once said that if you were to find yourself on a desert island and then accept Jesus as your savior then you’d be saved.

Rev. Graham is a fine and admirable man of God, and I think very highly of him; and he's somewhat right: but the word "saved" is a bit loaded. The best way to describe the state of a Christian is that he/she *has* been saved (cf. Ephesians 4:2-8, etc.), AND that he/she *is being* saved (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Peter 3:21, etc.), AND that he/she *hopes ultimately to be saved* (cf. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, etc.) It's not a "one-time" event; it extends through our entire lives (whether that life extends for 30 more years, or 30 more seconds).

He also went on to say that if someone believes that a person who is on a desert island and who comes to Jesus will then be condemned to Hell because she didn’t perform some ritual or go to a particular church...well, then that person is worshipping the wrong god!

That was covered above, in a sense; the "rituals" themselves are important, but NOT for their own sake. Take Baptism, for example: some people might see it as a "mere ritual" which (though they might not find it bad) is unnecessary... but we believe it's important for the key reason that Jesus, Himself, INSTITUTED it (John 3:5 and 3:22 and 4:1, etc.), and He also COMMANDED us to baptize (Matthew 28:19), and it was made clear that salvation was TIED to it (cf. Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38-41 and 8:36-38, etc.). The same is true of all the other Sacraments... and the "rituals" surrounding them are not meaningless. (A study of the OT, and how it illuminates the NT, shows this at almost every turn; e.g. the prohibition against the Passover lamb's bones being broken prefigured Christ's death on the cross without having His legs broken; when the Israelites grumbled against God and Moses a second time about water, and Moses struck the rock to get water after God had explicitly commanded him to SPEAK to the rock [and not hit it, since he'd done so once before], this defigured the prefigurement of Christ (the Rock, from whose side flowed blood and water), who was killed ONCE, not twice... and that disfigurement was so important that Moses was forbidden to enter the promised land. The examples are all over the place!)

“The vilest offender who truly believes that moment from Jesus a pardon receives!”

Yes (though "believe" is a "pregnant" word). And if that person only has a few moments to live, God will supply what's lacking (as in the case of St. Dismas, the "good thief"). But if that person has an extended life ahead of him, then that "belief" must take flesh (just as Jesus "took flesh") and be put into obedience (cf. Luke 6:46, John 3:36, etc.) and into good works (cf. 1 Corinthians 13, James 2, Matthew 25, etc.).

That wonderful line refers to the man on the cross next to Jesus whom Jesus personally redeemed. That man never went to a Catholic Church and he never needed to.

Well... he went to the HEAD of the Church, so I think that qualifies! :)

His salvation was literally by faith alone.

Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).
746 posted on 02/26/2015 7:07:11 AM PST by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

About the salvation of the thief not being by faith alone - what about the Centurion? The Centurion absolutely was not a Christian or a Catholic yet his faith (as Jesus Himself called it) was instrumental in the commission of a Miracle.


748 posted on 02/26/2015 8:42:54 AM PST by MeganC (You can ignore reality, but reality won't ignore you.)
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To: paladinan
In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved.

Not so. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church.

One becomes part of the body of Christ when they are saved, but that is not by default becoming part of any denomination.

The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.

That's not Scriptural in the least. There is not one verse in Scripture that supports that.

On the contrary, the grace of God is LAVISHED on us through faith.

Ephesians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

John 1:14-17 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).

The church supplies nothing for attaining spiritual life.

Salvation is a gift freely given and guaranteed.

When a person believes and is saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:

2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων

The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.

The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”

The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”

754 posted on 02/26/2015 6:39:53 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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