In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved. Not so. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church.
One becomes part of the body of Christ when they are saved, but that is not by default becoming part of any denomination.
The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.
That's not Scriptural in the least. There is not one verse in Scripture that supports that.
On the contrary, the grace of God is LAVISHED on us through faith.
Ephesians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
John 1:14-17 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).
The church supplies nothing for attaining spiritual life.
Salvation is a gift freely given and guaranteed.
When a person believes and is saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
[paladinan]
In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved.
[metmom]
Not so. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church.
Why do you keep drawing an "either/or" line through the middle of things? Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His Church. It's HIS Church, not some random collection of people; He instituted it for that very reason!
One becomes part of the body of Christ when they are saved, but that is not by default becoming part of any denomination.
"Denominations" should never have existed; the Body of Christ and the Bride, the Church, is meant to be ONE, and it's a scandal that people have fragmented it and divorced themselves from the Bride of Christ. And as for "saved", see my
post at #746; the Protestant idea of "once-saved, always-saved" is unbiblical (all the references to "being saved" and "will be saved, if you endure to the end" would be nonsense, otherwise), contradicts Church history and tradition, and it flies in the face of common sense and logic. In short: it's not true, and it was made up out of whole cloth. You need to pick a posuition which fits ALL of Scripture, not just the parts on which certain non-Catholic pastors prefer to teach.
[paladin]
The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.
[metmom]
That's not Scriptural in the least.
They're not SOLA-Scriptural... but that's hardly a problem, since "sola Scriptura" is provably false, anyway.
There is not one verse in Scripture that supports that.
No? Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon? (It was on this very thread; I'm not forcing you to search all of FR!) I'll type it again, if I must, but I'd really rather you remember it the first time, or at least scroll back and search...
Here are a few of the references, just for the time being... but I really would appreciate it if you'd go back to read my previous explanations. Recycling through the same objections is wearying, but it's especially so on teh very same thread!:
Necessity of Baptism: John 3:5, Matthew 28:19, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:36-38, etc.
Necessity of Confession: John 20:21-23 (if your sins are not forgiven, do you think you can be saved?)
Necessity of the Holy Eucharist: all of John 6, 1 Corinthians 11 23-30, etc.
Anointing of the Sick: James 5:14-20
On the contrary, the grace of God is LAVISHED on us through faith.
...and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you? There's your "either/or" impulse, again. And do remember that it's not "lavished on us" by faith ALONE. Had you deleted the words "on the contrary", I could have agreed with you, 100%.
[paladinan]
Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).
[metmom]
The church supplies nothing for attaining spiritual life.
Where in the Bible does it say this, clearly and unambiguously? (And to save precious time: please do not waste time by citing lots and lots of verses describing how spiritual gifts are through Christ, or through faith, or through grace; your job is to prove, from the Bible alone, that (despite 2000 years of history and Tradition which says otherwise) the Church is NOT the vehicle through which Jesus dispenses His grace and spiritual gifts. Don't do the artificial "either/or" thing.)
Salvation is a gift freely given and guaranteed.
Salvation is a gift freely given, yes. It is NOT guaranteed, at least until someone dies in a state of sanctifying grace and actually IS saved "once and for all". No living, breathing person who's still on earth is "guaranteed salvation".
When a person believes and is saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
First, the verse doesn't say "UNTIL the day of redemption"; even in the KJV, it says "UNTO the day [etc.]", which is more appropriately translated "FOR the day [etc.]". Second, see above, re: the mistaken idea of "saved".
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Right. And that's the very same Jesus Who said (twice, in the same Gospel) that "he who endures to the end will be saved"--the very same Jesus Who commissioned St. Paul to say, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12). As I mentioned repeatedly, on this thread alone: "believe" is a "pregnant" word which contains far more than mere assent of the mind. It involves obedience, primarily (see John 3:36: the opposite of "believe" is NOT "disbelieve"... but rather, "disOBEY").
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
First, see notes on "believe", above. Second, notice that there's nothing about no one being able to JUMP out of the Father's Hand? We cannot be damned by anything done by anyone else; but we can be damned by rejecting God and His Will (by sin).
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes... the very same St. Paul who wrote "but to us
who are being saved", only 10 verses later... and who wrote "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (is that a light matter, do you think?), and who wrote, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall", all in the same letter.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Right... as a guarantee of His faithfulness. Nowhere does he say that it's a guarantee of ultimate salvation; we can still throw that away. In the very same letter, he writes: "Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain." If someone accepts the grace of God at ALL, how can it be in vain? Only if they neglect it and fail to appropriate it... and those who do so will not be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
See above.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Right... a few chapters before he says, "Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them [...]". This is also the same St. Paul who wrote what I mentioned above. All these verse need to hang together... including the ones which speak against "once-saved, always saved"; we can't just have a battle of "Hey, I have 10 verses for my position, and you only have 5, so I win!" Either the whole Bible stands together, or it falls.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Right. So, think this through: what happens to those who DO grieve the Holy Spirit? And if it's impossible, why does St. Paul warn against it? (I don't go around warning people against square circles, and such... and I hope the reason is obvious!)
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Right... IF we repent, turn away from those sins, ACCEPT His forgiveness, and cooperate with His grace (as best we can) to avoid those sins in the future. In the same letter, he writes: "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you once walked, when you lived in them. But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth." Again: why warn people away from these things, if the wrath of God is no longer a worry for them?
As a side-note: how does sola Scriptura handle a very intriguing passage in the same letter?
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, that is, the church,[...]" (Colossians 1:24)
In your opinion, what is LACKING in the sufferings of Christ? Just curious.
You get the idea? There are three persistent problems with all your quotes:
1) Your interpretation of them is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
2) Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that your interpretation is infallible
3) In order to hold to your interpretation of these verses, you need to ignore or contradict many other verses which say the very opposite.
I don't mean to ignore your hard work with the Greek etymology (thank you for going to the effort), but: surely you see the problem? Nowhere in Scripture does it say that you chose the correct Greek lexicon (and that the author of that lexicon is infallible); and you're relying on guesses and probabilities (I chatted with SR about this, earlier)... which is hardly secure when trying to establish a "guarantee" of anything (whetehr salvation or sufficiency of a 66-book "sola Scriptura", etc.). Almost all of the words used (in this case and others) have primary meanings, then secondary, then tertiary, then quaternary, etc... and simply grabbing what one lexicon says is the primary meaning is hardly a guarantee of anything. Surely you see that?