[paladinan]
In the Apostolic dispensation (if I could call it that), the Church *is* necessary for salvation... though, in cases where someone isn't aware (either through lack of exposure, or lack of authentic and convincing presentation) of that fact, they may still be saved.
[metmom]
Not so. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not a church.
Why do you keep drawing an "either/or" line through the middle of things? Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His Church. It's HIS Church, not some random collection of people; He instituted it for that very reason!
One becomes part of the body of Christ when they are saved, but that is not by default becoming part of any denomination.
"Denominations" should never have existed; the Body of Christ and the Bride, the Church, is meant to be ONE, and it's a scandal that people have fragmented it and divorced themselves from the Bride of Christ. And as for "saved", see my
post at #746; the Protestant idea of "once-saved, always-saved" is unbiblical (all the references to "being saved" and "will be saved, if you endure to the end" would be nonsense, otherwise), contradicts Church history and tradition, and it flies in the face of common sense and logic. In short: it's not true, and it was made up out of whole cloth. You need to pick a posuition which fits ALL of Scripture, not just the parts on which certain non-Catholic pastors prefer to teach.
[paladin]
The Sacraments of the Church *are* ordinarily the means by which God dispenses His sanctifying Grace... though, again, it's possible in "emergency situations" for that grace to be given to those who do not have access to them.
[metmom]
That's not Scriptural in the least.
They're not SOLA-Scriptural... but that's hardly a problem, since "sola Scriptura" is provably false, anyway.
There is not one verse in Scripture that supports that.
No? Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon? (It was on this very thread; I'm not forcing you to search all of FR!) I'll type it again, if I must, but I'd really rather you remember it the first time, or at least scroll back and search...
Here are a few of the references, just for the time being... but I really would appreciate it if you'd go back to read my previous explanations. Recycling through the same objections is wearying, but it's especially so on teh very same thread!:
Necessity of Baptism: John 3:5, Matthew 28:19, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:36-38, etc.
Necessity of Confession: John 20:21-23 (if your sins are not forgiven, do you think you can be saved?)
Necessity of the Holy Eucharist: all of John 6, 1 Corinthians 11 23-30, etc.
Anointing of the Sick: James 5:14-20
On the contrary, the grace of God is LAVISHED on us through faith.
...and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you? There's your "either/or" impulse, again. And do remember that it's not "lavished on us" by faith ALONE. Had you deleted the words "on the contrary", I could have agreed with you, 100%.
[paladinan]
Not exactly. He didn't have a long life (or freedom) in which to be faithful, obedient, etc., so his is a special case (as would be the case of an infant who dies... the Church supplies the needed faith, even though the child has no capacity to choose faith, as yet).
[metmom]
The church supplies nothing for attaining spiritual life.
Where in the Bible does it say this, clearly and unambiguously? (And to save precious time: please do not waste time by citing lots and lots of verses describing how spiritual gifts are through Christ, or through faith, or through grace; your job is to prove, from the Bible alone, that (despite 2000 years of history and Tradition which says otherwise) the Church is NOT the vehicle through which Jesus dispenses His grace and spiritual gifts. Don't do the artificial "either/or" thing.)
Salvation is a gift freely given and guaranteed.
Salvation is a gift freely given, yes. It is NOT guaranteed, at least until someone dies in a state of sanctifying grace and actually IS saved "once and for all". No living, breathing person who's still on earth is "guaranteed salvation".
When a person believes and is saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
First, the verse doesn't say "UNTIL the day of redemption"; even in the KJV, it says "UNTO the day [etc.]", which is more appropriately translated "FOR the day [etc.]". Second, see above, re: the mistaken idea of "saved".
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Right. And that's the very same Jesus Who said (twice, in the same Gospel) that "he who endures to the end will be saved"--the very same Jesus Who commissioned St. Paul to say, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12). As I mentioned repeatedly, on this thread alone: "believe" is a "pregnant" word which contains far more than mere assent of the mind. It involves obedience, primarily (see John 3:36: the opposite of "believe" is NOT "disbelieve"... but rather, "disOBEY").
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
First, see notes on "believe", above. Second, notice that there's nothing about no one being able to JUMP out of the Father's Hand? We cannot be damned by anything done by anyone else; but we can be damned by rejecting God and His Will (by sin).
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes... the very same St. Paul who wrote "but to us
who are being saved", only 10 verses later... and who wrote "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (is that a light matter, do you think?), and who wrote, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall", all in the same letter.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Right... as a guarantee of His faithfulness. Nowhere does he say that it's a guarantee of ultimate salvation; we can still throw that away. In the very same letter, he writes: "Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain." If someone accepts the grace of God at ALL, how can it be in vain? Only if they neglect it and fail to appropriate it... and those who do so will not be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
See above.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Right... a few chapters before he says, "Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them [...]". This is also the same St. Paul who wrote what I mentioned above. All these verse need to hang together... including the ones which speak against "once-saved, always saved"; we can't just have a battle of "Hey, I have 10 verses for my position, and you only have 5, so I win!" Either the whole Bible stands together, or it falls.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Right. So, think this through: what happens to those who DO grieve the Holy Spirit? And if it's impossible, why does St. Paul warn against it? (I don't go around warning people against square circles, and such... and I hope the reason is obvious!)
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Right... IF we repent, turn away from those sins, ACCEPT His forgiveness, and cooperate with His grace (as best we can) to avoid those sins in the future. In the same letter, he writes: "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you once walked, when you lived in them. But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth." Again: why warn people away from these things, if the wrath of God is no longer a worry for them?
As a side-note: how does sola Scriptura handle a very intriguing passage in the same letter?
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, that is, the church,[...]" (Colossians 1:24)
In your opinion, what is LACKING in the sufferings of Christ? Just curious.
You get the idea? There are three persistent problems with all your quotes:
1) Your interpretation of them is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
2) Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say that your interpretation is infallible
3) In order to hold to your interpretation of these verses, you need to ignore or contradict many other verses which say the very opposite.
I don't mean to ignore your hard work with the Greek etymology (thank you for going to the effort), but: surely you see the problem? Nowhere in Scripture does it say that you chose the correct Greek lexicon (and that the author of that lexicon is infallible); and you're relying on guesses and probabilities (I chatted with SR about this, earlier)... which is hardly secure when trying to establish a "guarantee" of anything (whetehr salvation or sufficiency of a 66-book "sola Scriptura", etc.). Almost all of the words used (in this case and others) have primary meanings, then secondary, then tertiary, then quaternary, etc... and simply grabbing what one lexicon says is the primary meaning is hardly a guarantee of anything. Surely you see that?
>>Salvation is FROM Jesus Christ, THROUGH His
Church shed blood.<<
There, fixed it for you. Not once in scripture does it say through a church.
>>Have you forgotten all that I wrote, so soon?<<
Repeating the twisting of scripture by the Catholic Church doesn't change the fact that it's still twisted and in error.
>>...and you think that the Sacraments have nothing to do with faith, do you?<<
They amount to pagan rituals, no more.
>>Where in the Bible does it say this, clearly and unambiguously?<<
Read the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. "churches" do nothing as far as salvation is concerned and most of them inhibit it just as the Catholic Church does.
>>No living, breathing person who's still on earth is "guaranteed salvation".<<
Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Looks pretty solid to me.
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
That give is a present tense verb, not future. The Father has given, not will give. It's a done deal paladinan. With the guarantee of the Holy Spirit until the redemption. We can trust God's promise and guarantee don't you think?