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To: vladimir998; All
CCC841 and the supporting text from Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate give aid and comfort to the enemy by legitimizing islam. It's not what the muslims think about CCC841, it's what CCC841 makes everyone else think about islam.

Where did this novel understanding of islam come from? Please enlighten everyone, because I'd truly like to know when, why and how exactly the Catholic Church changed Her teaching. Because that's what happened if Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate are doctrinally binding.

If on the other hand as Cardinal Brandmüller says the declarations on non-Christian religions are non-binding... then perhaps muslims are still pagans after all. For that is the Church's perennial teaching. Islam is paganism and mohammed's "monotheism" was to a moon god.

Paragraph 841 of the CCC is an error, and the fact that it is promulgated as truth should keep EVERY Catholic up nights.

771 posted on 04/04/2015 2:23:15 PM PDT by Legatus (I think, therefore you're out of your mind)
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To: Legatus

“CCC841 and the supporting text from Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate give aid and comfort to the enemy by legitimizing islam.”

Nonsense. You’re making the mistake of saying that because the Catholic Church recognizes a fact or truth that that means the “enemy” is legitimized. It isn’t. Does recognizing that Jews profess belief in the God of Abraham legitimize Jewish denial of the Trinity?

“It’s not what the muslims think about CCC841, it’s what CCC841 makes everyone else think about islam.”

You’re wrong again. I am all for a crusade. CCC 841 doesn’t in any way lessen my desire to see a crusade. I know of no one who believes CCC 841 means Muslims should not be stopped from killing people for instance. I know of no Catholic who believes Islam’s denial of Christ and the Trinity is legitimized because of 841. I don’t even think you believe that! And if you did believe that is the end result on others you sure don’t believe any differently about Islam now do you? So your whole arguments falls to pieces. Again.

“Where did this novel understanding of islam come from?”

It isn’t novel.

“Please enlighten everyone, because I’d truly like to know when, why and how exactly the Catholic Church changed Her teaching.”

It didn’t change. Now, I would not be surprised if you ONCE AGAIN take two different statements and mistake them for being about the same thing. The anti-Catholics will fall for that I suppose because they’re not very bright to begin with, but you’re not going to fool me. Do you even know that in the Middle Ages Islam was considered a Christological heresy? Do you even know what that really means?

“Because that’s what happened if Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate are doctrinally binding.”

Nope.

“If on the other hand as Cardinal Brandmüller says the declarations on non-Christian religions are non-binding... then perhaps muslims are still pagans after all.” As non-baptized people they can be referred to pagans in that sense (as unbaptized people). The only non-Christians we usually don’t refer to as pagans are Jews. See CCC 498 where you see “Jews and pagans alike”. In other words, no distinction is made for Sikhs and Muslims even though both are monotheists like Jews. The problem is that the term “pagans” is usually used to refer to people who believe in many gods. The term is a Latin one having to do with the rustic Romans who held onto their Greco-Roman polytheistic beliefs.

“For that is the Church’s perennial teaching. Islam is paganism and mohammed’s “monotheism” was to a moon god.”

Islam is paganism - in the sense that its adherents are unbaptized. “Paganism” is not a precise term don’t forget and the CCC only uses it sparingly for that very reason. Your opinion about the “moon god” is meaningless for two reasons:

1) No matter how “Allah” was originally viewed by Arabs, the name came to be synonymous with the God of Abraham. Christians use it all the time throughout the Arabic and Muslim world to refer to God (yes, YHWH and the Trinity). That includes Catholics AND Protestants by the way.

“Paragraph 841 of the CCC is an error,”

You have no authority to decide that. You do realize that, right?

“and the fact that it is promulgated as truth should keep EVERY Catholic up nights.”

No. We just keep in mind that it doesn’t matter that Muslims profess to believe in the God of Abraham since 2 John 1:9 is in play no matter what.


772 posted on 04/04/2015 3:22:27 PM PDT by vladimir998
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