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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Petrosius
What do you think it was when your pope prayed TO Mary for saving his life??? Here's a hint:

2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

The same as all of you do when you pray TO Mary and your saints...You drop down to your knees in prayer...Prayer is worship...

221 posted on 04/21/2015 4:51:37 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Petrosius
When Catholics use "prayer" in reference to the saints they are using it in the sense of the intransitive definition #1: "to make a request in a humble manner." And the request is that they pray to God for us. To insist that it means "worship" when this is not the intention of the speaker is to bear false witness. I would expect better from one who claims to be a Christian.

And what is it when the request is NOT that they pray to God for you, but provide for you without the aid of God???

222 posted on 04/21/2015 4:55:14 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: reagandemocrat
There is a “Prayer for Relief” in every complaint filed in every court in the country. Pretty sure they aren’t “worshipping” the judges.

Likely not, but they are appealing to the one who makes judgment...It's not God's fault that they stretch the meaning of prayer...

223 posted on 04/21/2015 4:58:00 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Alex Murphy
Can't be a Catholic thread without knocking Protestants!

After reading this thread (and being on Free Republic since '08), I feel some Catholics do enjoy coming down on Protestants intentionally. I can only think the saints are praying passionately for us all.
224 posted on 04/21/2015 5:02:21 AM PDT by mlizzy ("Tell your troubles to Jesus," my wisecracking father used to say, and now I do.......at adoration.)
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To: ealgeone
Do you, as a catholic, accept this part of catholic tradition?

Speaking for myself: Yes.

Veni Sancti Spiritus. Veni per Mariam.

225 posted on 04/21/2015 5:05:39 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: ealgeone

You may find this of interest.

http://archivio.traces-cl.com/otto01/ptn.htm


226 posted on 04/21/2015 5:24:39 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Petrosius
When Catholics say that they pray to the saints they are using the legitimate meaning of making a request, i.e. for the saints to pray to God for us. To suggest that Catholics mean anything else is to bear false witness.

Then there are a lot of Catholics bearing false witness. I'm sorry, but historically Catholic prayer to saints has been presented as prayer to dead saints for the saints personally to intervene in the world. I get that it can be reformulated to a more scripturally sound basis. But the article in question seems to be presenting prayer to saints for saintly intervention as a valid and scripturally supported practice.

227 posted on 04/21/2015 5:34:34 AM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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To: RnMomof7; NYer; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86
>>THEY WERE WITNESSES TO US... NOT WITNESSING US<<

The Catholic Church has to twist that to fit their doctrine. When a lawyer takes a deposition from someone and the person dies the testimony of that witness is still permissible in court. We have the testimony of the faith of them all recorded in scripture so it is a witness to us.

228 posted on 04/21/2015 5:43:51 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
So we are speaking of the saints living in Heaven: not the dead, but the living.

Yes 'we' are.

Who will be rising from the graves at the last trump?


St. Paul says (Romans 2:6, 10), "God will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good work,... there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek."
 
Yup: after JUDGEMENT.
 
GOD will not be like the TSA and frequent flyers; who can (for a FEE) pay EXTRA to bypass the getting felt up line to board first.
 
Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED. Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE.   The dead  were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works.
 
 

229 posted on 04/21/2015 5:47:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
This is about all believers' sharing in God's glory.

Nope...


Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another

230 posted on 04/21/2015 5:48:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer; Boogieman
>>In Matthew 16:19 Jesus gives authority over his Church to Peter, to bind and loose: "Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven."<<

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

231 posted on 04/21/2015 5:48:54 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
God is telling us the truth.< P>Then why does Rome want to bend it?
232 posted on 04/21/2015 5:49:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Nothing changes here at all. Same people, same arguments, same bigotry and hatred.

Jesus may love us all but I’m pretty sure Jesus is NOT approving of the actions and speech of those of you who carry hatred and bigotry in your hearts.

You certainly should know who you are (after all your words speak so loudly) and so do the rest of us.


233 posted on 04/21/2015 5:50:48 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: Resettozero; metmom
Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms...


If we keep this up; NOTHING will be literal in the NT!

234 posted on 04/21/2015 5:52:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GeronL; RnMomof7
>>If you are praying to anyone besides God through Jesus, you are already doing it wrong<<

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Disrespecting God by going to someone else is not going to turn out well for Catholics.

235 posted on 04/21/2015 5:53:48 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: steve86
Dopey comment. She doesn't exist in a temporal world.

Perhaps; but have you ANY evidence to support this non-biblical concept?

236 posted on 04/21/2015 5:53:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Resettozero
Don’t listen to that singing!

I hear ya!!


(click)
Praise to the Man!
 
 
 
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


237 posted on 04/21/2015 5:55:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Biggirl; MamaB; Mechanicos
>>Do you ask another believer to keep you when you need prayers from them in their prayers to Jesus/God?<<

Trying to get us to believe that all Catholics do is ask them to pray for you is futile. We have seen some of those prayers.

238 posted on 04/21/2015 5:56:50 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: RnMomof7; NYer
YOPIOS. By what authority do YOU interpret scripture?

This is really funny ... The magisterium has only "infallibly" interpreted a few verses of scripture.. every homily, every RC bible study, every RC apologist and every RC posting on FR are doing nothing more that YOPIOS ... and because of biblical ignorance have no idea what they are talking about

I am not going to rehash old ground over interpretation according to the inspiration of the holy spirit versus interpretation according to the RCC. But RnMomof7's comment deserves emphasis. The RCC has through history taught and then retracted several interpretations of scripture. Every church comprises human beings, all of whom are often likely to incorporate their own biases into their interpretations of scripture. When Christ says "you are Peter and on this rock I build my church," for example, I see something totally different than RCC adherents. Indulgences require a tortured interpretation, in my opinion. Mortification of the flesh through flagellation. Crusades against intra-RCC reformers in the 13th-16th centuries. Kings waiting on baptism until the end of life so as not to be burdened by sins committed after baptism. Purgatory was valid, and now is not. As RnMomof7 points out, the RCC has wisely not asserted infallibility on more scriptural interpretations. If they had, we would be looking at the Mormon problem of backtracking on polygamy and whether dark-skinned peoples can be members of the church.

Ultimately, the veneration of saints is a RCC tradition that as you describe it is not necessarily contrary to scripture. I don't agree with it, but I don't see your formulation violating core doctrines. And as models for believers' lives, many of the RCC's recognized saints are truly worthy of contemplation, respect, and emulation. OTOH, prayers to saints for those saints to intervene in the petitioner's lives does violate core doctrine because it gives glory to the dead saint rather than to God. But I think you agree with that, so it is not an issue. FATC

239 posted on 04/21/2015 5:56:50 AM PDT by FateAmenableToChange
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To: daniel1212
Over 200 prayers, besides instruction on prayer to Heaven. (“Our Father who art in Heaven,” not “Out Mother.”)

WHAT!!??!!??


Sirach 40:1
 
Great labour is created for all men,
and a heavy yoke is upon the children of Adam,
from the day of their coming out of their mother's womb,
until the day of their burial into the mother of all.
 
 
 
HMMMmmm... I thought Mary was...
 


240 posted on 04/21/2015 5:58:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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