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To: vladimir998

“None of what you posted changes the fact that the ROC collaborated with the Communist KGB. Alexy II was a KGB agent. This is known and irrefutable.”

So millions of martyrs have no meaning. The near extermination of the Russian Church is irrelevant because the secret police were able to set up a front with a handful of collaborationist bishops and clergy.

Got it.

If courser that makes the Roman Catholic Church guilty of collaboration as well since there is a long and well documented record of catholic priests and bishops who collaborated with Communist governments and secret police services. And of course there are those who collaborated with the Nazis.

One difference between our churches of course, is that we haven’t canonized our collaborators.

http://annakid.dinstudio.se/empty_72.html


11 posted on 05/18/2015 7:18:31 PM PDT by NRx (An unrepentant champion of the old order and determined foe of damnable Whiggery in all its forms.)
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To: NRx

“So millions of martyrs have no meaning.”

Do millions of good deeds excuse even one sin? If you answer that question like a Christian, then you have your answer to your own question.

“If courser that makes the Roman Catholic Church guilty of collaboration as well since there is a long and well documented record of catholic priests and bishops who collaborated with Communist governments and secret police services.”

No. The difference is this: While some Catholic bishops and priests supported the Nazis, none were ever ordained at their orders. The Nazis never ran Catholic seminaries, nor were they informed of what was discussed in confessions willingly by Catholic priests. The pope was never handpicked by the Nazis from the time he was a 20 something priest (as the communists did with Alexy II). The communists essentially owned the Russian Orthodox Church and the above ground part of that Church - the actual hierarchy of the Church - was entirely compliant with the communist authority and still is with Russian authority. That was NEVER the case with the Catholic Church or the papacy or even the German hierarchy.

“And of course there are those who collaborated with the Nazis.”

Plenty of Orthodox clergy (and some Catholic too) can still be accused of collaborating with Nazis (or what are considered Nazis by the lazy press) in Ukraine (both) and Russia (entirely Orthodox) and Croatia (entirely Catholic) today. And who knows what has been forgotten: http://www.srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2007/12/forgotten-1943-genocide-by-nazi-chetnik.html

“One difference between our churches of course, is that we haven’t canonized our collaborators.”

Don’t be so sure. This Orthodox saint, for instance, praised Hitler (and later was arrested by the Nazis!): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87#The_Thirties

And if you want pictures of clergy (many Orthodox) mixing with Nazis, neo-Nazis, and various modern day fascists, anti-semites, and ultra-nationalists just look here: https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+orthodox+clergy+nazis&rlz=1C1FLDB_enUS531US531&espv=2&biw=1093&bih=514&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QqlaVZuBL8-PyATUl4HQBA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

Serbian Orthodox clergy supporting the Nazis - the REAL Nazis:

The Serbian Orthodox Church openly collaborated with the Nazis, and many priests publicly defended the persecution of the Jews. On 13 August 1941, approximately 500 distinguished Serbs signed “An Appeal to the Serbian Nation”, which called for loyalty to the occupying Nazis. The first three signers were bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church. On 30 January 1942, Metropolitan Josif, the acting head of the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church, officially prohibited conversions of Jews to Serbian Orthodoxy, thereby blocking a means of saving Jewish lives. At a public rally, after the government minister Olcan “thanked God that the enormously powerful fist of Germany had not come down upon the head of the Serbian nation” but instead “upon the heads of the Jews in our midst”, the speaker of these words was then blessed by a high-ranking Serbian Orthodox priest.
A most striking example of Serbian antisemitism combined with historical revisionism is the case of Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic (1880-1956), revered as one of the most influential church leaders and ideologists after Saint Sava, founder of the Serbian Orthodox Church. To Serbs, Bishop Velimirovic was a martyr who survived torture in the Dachau prison camp. In truth he was brought to Dachau (as were other prominent European clergy), because the Nazis believed he could be useful for propaganda. There he spent approximately two months as an “Ehrenhaftling” (honour prisoner) in a special section, dining on the same food as the German officers, living in private quarters, and making excursions into town under German escort. From Dachau, this venerated priest endorsed the Holocaust:

“Europe is presently the main battlefield of the Jew and his father, the devil, against the heavenly Father and his only begotten Son… (Jews) first need to become legally equal with Christians in order to repress Christianity next, turn Christians into atheist, and step on their necks. All the modern European slogans have been made up by Jews, the crucifiers of Christ: democracy, strikes, socialism atheism, tolerance of all religions, pacifism, universal revolution, capitalism and communism… All this has been done with the intention to eliminate Christ… You should think about this, my Serbian brethren, and correspondingly correct your thoughts, desires and acts.” (Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic: Addresses to the Serbian People–Through the Prison Window. Himmelsthur, Germany: Serbian Orthodox Eparchy for Western Europe, 1985, pp. 161-162). http://www.bosniak.org/serbian-nazi-past-and-genocide-against-jews-in-the-holocaust/

And Serbian Orthodox supporting modern Serbian fascists? Here you go: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/seselj-honour-from-serbian-orthodox-church-sparks-anger

And certainly there are leftists people out there who see Serbian Orthodox as being in cahoots with neo-fascists:

Two of the youth groups most closely linked to the Serbian Orthodox Church are Obraz (Honour) and Krv i cast(Blood and Honour). Founded in 2001, Obraz is an anti-communist, anti-globalization and clero-fascist youth organization. http://www.wluml.org/sites/wluml.org/files/Challenging%20the%20Growing%20Power%20of%20the%20Serbian%20Orthodox%20Church%20in%20Public%20Life_The%20Case%20of%20Women%20in%20Black-Serbia.pdf

At least in America the Orthodox are more likely to get it right: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/church-to-orthodox-fascists-repent/


12 posted on 05/18/2015 8:25:32 PM PDT by vladimir998
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