Posted on 06/12/2015 6:18:39 AM PDT by ADSUM
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
It’s the letter to the *Hebrews*, remember. It’s talking about the Jewish Levitical priesthood.
Hebrews 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
1 John 1:9 says otherwise.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 NASB).
For Christians, our sins were forgiven on the cross.
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14 NASB)
We do not have need of an earthly priest to forgive us as we have THE High Priest who forgives us.
23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever (Hebrews 7:23-28 NASB).
Catholics have a strange view of the "forgiveness of sin ".. Their priests "forgive " your sins.. BUT God still demands that you pay for that sin .. the "penance " the priest gave you is not enough.. ...you still need burn time in purgatory for that "forgiven sin"...
This is not what my Bible tells me about Gods forgiveness.. It tells me that Jesus paid the price for my sin...and God has removed it as far as the east to the west (ps 103:12 ) And He will see it no more (Heb.8::12)
What is interesting is there is NO RECORD of the apostles ever hearing confessions.. And there were no individual confessions in the early church either until 1214 ...So it appears that neither the apostles nor the ECF thought they could "forgive sin"
Chalk it up to tradition!
No. The letter is written to Jewish Christians, exhorting them to stand firm in Christ and not to be drawn away to the old system, inferior in every way to Jesus. Rome resurrected something God put to death through His Son. The ONLY priesthood that once functioned between God and man has been ABOLISHED. It was inferior, to be replaced by God’s superior Son.
No one needs Rome’s ersatz priesthood. Anyone of faith can go to the Father directly through the Son.
“What is interesting is there is NO RECORD of the apostles ever hearing confessions..”
Except perhaps in 2 Cor 2:10. See the KJV or DRV there.
“And there were no individual confessions in the early church either until 1214 ...”
That’s completely false. John T. MacNeill and Helena M. Gamer make clear in the decades old class, Medieval Handbooks of Penance: A Translation of the Principal Libri Poenitentiales and Selections from Related Documents (1938), that private confessions took place before public penances in the early Church. That is why Paulinus, in his biography of St. Ambrose of Milan, could write that Ambrose shared men’s sins confessed to him privately with only God. The evidence is strong enough that anti-Catholic bigots routinely ignore it and make blatantly false statements to the contrary. Paul Haffner, in his book, The Sacramental Mystery, notes that, “The general tendency was that confession became increasingly private in the West after St. Leo the Great and in the East after Bishop Nectarius of Constantinople.” (page 124).
Or how about this: Pope St. Leo the Great in the middle of the fifth century, deserves to be quoted in full. He is writing to the bishops of Campania in Italy, reproving them for demanding a public confession of sins before receiving absolution in the sacrament of Penance.
“I have recently heard that some have unlawfully presumed to act contrary to a rule of Apostolic origin. And I hereby decree that the unlawful practice be completely stopped.
“It is with regard to the reception of penance. An abuse has crept in which requires that the faithful write out their individual sins in a little book which is then to be read out loud to the public.
“All that is necessary, however, is for the sinner to manifest his conscience in a secret confession to the priests alone…It is sufficient, therefore, to have first offered one’s confession to God, and then also to the priest, who acts as an intercessor for the transgressions of the penitents” (Magna indignatione, March 6, 459). http://catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2010/06/private-confession-is-apostolic.html This same document from Pope St. Leo is quoted in Haffner, page 123.
The blog I just linked to also has these quotes (I freely admit I do not know their original source):
St. Athanasius said, “As the Baptized is enlightened by the grace of the Holy Spirit, by means of the priest, the repentant is granted forgiveness of his sins by the grace of Christ, also through the priest.”
St. Augustine said, “The Lord Jesus Christ rose Lazarus from the death and those around him (the apostles) loosed him from the grave clothes that bound him.” Was the Giver of life unable to loosen the grave clothes? By loosening them, the apostles denoted their authority of absolving and forgiving sins, which the Lord granted to them and their successors.”
St. Gregory of Nyssa said, “Regard the church priest as a spiritual father for you, reveal to him your secrets openly, just as a patient reveals his hidden wounds to the physician, and so is healed.”
“So it appears that neither the apostles nor the ECF thought they could “forgive sin””
Except that I showed Ambrose - an ECF - and Pope St. Leo - an ECF - and others most clearly did.
Please note: I did not even bother to bring up the early Irish practice of frequent private confession and penance which took place CENTURIES before 1215. Also, please not the date you probably wanted to post was 1215, not 1214.
If you break my window, I forgive you because I know you are truly sorry, but you still need to buy me a new window.
And on the cross He made provision for the forgiveness of ALL sins for those who believe in Him.
Are you perfect? Have you never sinned? Have you made a perfect act of contrition to God for each and every sin?
I am not perfect and I do sin on occasion. I go to a priest and confess my sin, if I am truly sorry. He will judge if I am sincere or not. If I am, he will absolve my soul from that sin and give me a penance. Doing the penance shows God that I truly am sorry and it is then erased from my soul. I receive a grace from God to know I am forgiven and that I truly want to live as He asks of me.
Catholics don’t live in a world of fluffy clouds and rainbows thinking once saved always saved. Read any book about a saint, any approved apparition and you will read that Jesus hurts because of our sins, indifference, and non-belief. He asks for reparation for the sins committed by all. He does not just sit in heaven happy as a lark, he aches, thirsts for souls. He asks us to make reparation for our own sins and the sins of others, to think otherwise is just foolish. Our prayers, sacrifices and love help to bring solace to his breaking heart.
Today is the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. If you do anything today, at least tell him you are sorry for all those who don’t believe in Him.
One would hope people would see the folly in this. Christ died for all sins and we are reconciled to Him when we accepted Him. We belong to God. We don't do things to earn "good behavior" nor are we reconciled over and over to Him. He knows what we are when He saved us and He is at work in us to mold us into what we are becoming.
Your comment: “One would hope people would see the folly in this. Christ died for all sins and we are reconciled to Him when we accepted Him.”
So are you saying that when someone accepts God, then they do not commit sins after that time and thus there is no need to forgive these sins? How does one go from being a sinner to not being a sinner? Hoe does one achieve perfection in the eyes of the Lord?
Why did Jesus tell the apostles, “‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23)? (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)
Please explain the following: “If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all (past and future) upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to “retain” sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be “retained.”
1 John 1:9...Psalm 51......
The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”(Luke 18:11-14 NASB)
I am not perfect and I do sin on occasion.
If you think it's "on occasion" and not daily then you might need to rethink things.
I go to a priest and confess my sin, if I am truly sorry.
Are you saying there are some sins for which you are not truly sorry? If so, how are those viewed by God? Are you forgiven if you confess even if you're not truly sorry?
He will judge if I am sincere or not.
What if you're a good actor? Some of the most sinful people can play the part of a contrite person....understand I'm not saying you do.
If I am, he will absolve my soul from that sin and give me a penance. Doing the penance shows God that I truly am sorry and it is then erased from my soul. I receive a grace from God to know I am forgiven and that I truly want to live as He asks of me.
What "work" could you do that would equal, or even come close, to accomplishing what the sacrifice Christ made on the cross did for us? Jesus is the reparation for our sins. He is the one-time sacrifice. He has paid our sin debt nailing it to the cross.
I would like to see your biblical support for "doing penance".
That verse has nothing to do with confession...this was an ecclestical decision by the church at Corinth ... it has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin
Just show us where the apostles ever believed they could forgive sin... then show us where if this were the case where Jesus told them they could "pass on " that gift... ..
The early church had no dogma demanding individual confession to a priest until 1214..the lateran council..
From the catholic “Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this ‘order of penitents’ (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the ‘private’ practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1447).
“That verse has nothing to do with confession...”
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Clearly forgiveness in the person of Christ is exactly what Confession is about.
“Just show us where the apostles ever believed they could forgive sin...”
John 20:19-23. The Apostles believed Jesus’ words.
Nothing you posted actually overturned anything I said.
I see that you refused to deal with the quotes I posted. I’m not surprised.
I think maybe Catholics shave a different God.
Isaiah 43:25 "I, evenI, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us settle the matter," says the LORD."Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
Isaiah 44:22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you."
Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Your comment: “Obviously Peter was not saying that a person has to be Baptized to be saved but that it would save us.”
This is what Jesus said:
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.d 6What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.e 7Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above. John 2:5-7
When Jesus die upon the cross how many of you sins were in the future?
You have given no posts were the apostles HEARD confessions and FORGAVE their sin...because there are none. .—......
10But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakesin the presence of Christ,
Not in the PLACE OF CHRIST..
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