Posted on 06/12/2015 6:18:39 AM PDT by ADSUM
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
This is beyond the scope of any Catholic, living or dead...But I'll put it down anyway...
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Does the bible speak of any of the 12 apostles forgiving anyone's sins??? Nope...Not a single time...Doesn't it occur to you people that after they have been given the commission to forgive sins, they never did it???
Did those apostles ever set on 12 thrones while judging the 12 tribes of Israel??? No??? Of course not...Because it hasn't happened yet...
Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
That's a physical kingdom they are looking for...And what did Jesus say??? Did Jesus say there would be no kingdom??? Nope...
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
These apostles were offered the position of being 12 judges who would not only judge Israel but forgive sins...Did it ever happen??? No...That kingdom has not shown up...And it is NOT the Catholic religion...
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.d 6What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.e 7Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above. John 2:5-7
There is no forgiveness if I have to replace the window...That is me paying for my own sin...
Your comment: “When Jesus die upon the cross how many of you sins were in the future?”
Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts.
For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. Confession. Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.
No...That's why Jesus died...HE made the perfect act of contrition to God for us...How do you guys not know that???
Yea putting in that window is............ WORKS
Your comment: “Yes, and no one can confess that Jesus is lord except by the holy spirit, also meaning spiritual baptism.”
What is your basis in your statement?
Jesus gave us an example of His Baptism by John the Baptist.
It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood. (I) The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin.
One more time.. your own church says there were not one on one confessions
The Catechism of the Catholic Church admits that private confession first came on the scene in the seventh century:
“Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this ‘order of penitents’ (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the ‘private’ practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1447).
ὕδωρ, ὕδατος
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.
You can be born in water...
You can drink water...
You can wash your clothes in water...
You can wash yourself in water...
You can cool a radiator with water...
You can grow a garden with water...
You can be baptized in water...
Water DOES NOT mean
being born,
drinking,
washing,
cooling,
growing,
or baptizing...
Hopefully you guys will figure that out one day...
Your comment: “There is no forgiveness if I have to replace the window...That is me paying for my own sin...”
That may be a partial payment, but it may not pay fully for the inconvenience, etc.
Also it is not WORKS, it is a payment of a debt.
Do you remember the Our Father where we ask God to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those trespass against us?
Sure do but that does not solve your problem...If you forgive the guy but then he doesn't replace your window, do you retract the forgiveness??? Or do you wait for the window to be replaced before you actually forgive???
“Did Paul HIMSELF hear that confession??”
Does John 20:19-23 possibly mean anything other than confession? No. It can’t.
“One more time.. your own church says there were not one on one confessions”
No, the Church has never said that.
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church admits that private confession first came on the scene in the seventh century”
No. The CCC is clearly discussing “the ‘private’ practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church.” Confession comes BEFORE Penance. This is why two sentences earlier it says (plain as day!), “according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation.” The simple fact is that confession was usually in private, while penance could very well be public (By the way, technically it still is: Confession is private, while penance is performed - generally - publicly). Reconciliation has parts. Do you even know what those parts are? You apparently are confusing one with another.
Also, in your post there you are essentially saying, “See, I said it only came about in 1214 [sic] but really it was in the ‘seventh century’.” Either way you’re still wrong.
Also, if Jesus said to the apostles “whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and those you retain are retained,” what would be the point of that statement? If we are to never worry about our sins, why would that statement even made? If they can retain sins, it has to mean something.
Ever hear of Jesus giving all authority to the Apostles at the Great commission.
Jesus is telling us to forgive, so that we do not have hatred in out heart.
If you can pay for the window and don’t, you were never really sorry. That’s the point. We are talking about Jesus’s forgiveness.
What is your basis in your statement?
1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Mathew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
So do you chose to ignore the words of Jesus?
“Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
So do stand in front of your church and ask for forgiveness or do you go to your pastor to confess your sins?
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