Posted on 06/29/2015 7:25:04 AM PDT by marshmallow
An historic meeting between Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church is "getting closer every day," a senior Orthodox prelate said in an interview published on Sunday.
The unprecedented meeting would be a significant step towards healing the 1,000-year-old rift between the Western and Eastern branches of Christianity, which split in the Great Schism of 1054.
"Now such a meeting is getting closer every day but it must be well prepared," Metropolitan Hilarion, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church's foreign relations department, said in an interview with Italy's Corriere della Sera newspaper.
He said the meeting between the head of the 1.2 billion member Roman Catholic Church and the head of Russian Orthodox Church - which counts some 165 million of the world's 250 million Orthodox Christians - would take place in a "neutral" country, not in Moscow or the Vatican. Austria or Hungary were possibilities, he said.
Hilarion, one of the most influential people in world Orthodoxy, said he could not say if the meeting could take place as early as this year, but there was currently "a good dynamic" between the two Churches.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
The ROC needs to keep that bastard at arms length. He is filth and a heretic. The leader of a joke of a church.
Christendom’s salvation will have to come from the east apparently.
Could be a Kremlin plan to demote the Patriarch of Constantinople (traditional leader of all Orthodoxy) and replace him with a Moscow-selected Russian. The Russians have dreamed of such an outcome at least since the time of Catherine the Great.
(Not to mention that during Soviet times, much of the Russian church served basically as an arm of the KGB.)
I find it interesting that two bodies dedicated to forgiveness have taken 1,000 years to start the “healing process”.
If I had a nickel for every time some variation on this headline popped up in the news over the last 20 years or so, I could stop buying lottery tickets.
Yeah, but it will happen soon. The Russians are going to have to do it to help stop the coming disaster in the Ukraine.
Disaster for whom? I am no fan of Putin but he seems to be doing what he wants and no one is lifting a finger to stop him.
“Disaster for whom?”
The Orthodox. Are you unaware about the current situation of the Orthodox in Ukraine? How many obediences are there in Ukraine now? Do you think there is no harm in store for the ROC if the UOC-MP decides to go its own way because of Russian aggression? The UOC-MP might be forced by circumstances to make such a choice. The Ukraine is a mess in terms of the Orthodox faith and its competing jurisdictions.
That’s a fair point. The Ukraine is an ecclesiological mess. But the Pope is not going to solve the problem. Any interference by him would almost certainly produce a nasty backlash. The UGRCC’s quiet support for the two main schismatic churches has already greatly contributed to strained relations.
That said schisms come and go. This will be sorted out over time and without direction from Rome. Next year we are set to convene what might turn out to be the Tenth Ecumenical Synod. The jurisdictional mess is on the agenda. Who knows what will happen?
“That’s a fair point. The Ukraine is an ecclesiological mess. But the Pope is not going to solve the problem. Any interference by him would almost certainly produce a nasty backlash.”
You’re missing the point. If the situation goes the way it is headed at this time, you can bet Catholics will be involved as an outside but familiar party who can bring the feuding Orthodox obediences together. Only a few people could do this: the pope or his delegate (such as His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, or a bishop from the Roman Church), or the EP - unless the UOC-MP decides to do something dramatic (which is doubtful).
“The UGRCC’s quiet support for the two main schismatic churches has already greatly contributed to strained relations.”
First, there is no such thing as “UGRCC”. Perhaps you mean the UGCC? It would behoove you to learn and use the proper terminology and abbreviations don’t you think? Also, it doesn’t matter since the smaller obediences forming into one large obedience is probably the only way to solve the schism. Don’t you get it?
“That said schisms come and go.”
Yes, but here the UOC-MP is the reason for the schisms. Ukrainians would rather the Church not be a lackey to the ROC. They have every reason to feel that way.
“This will be sorted out over time and without direction from Rome.”
You need to start thinking about how the situation actually exists. It will not be “Rome” but the Catholic Church. Rome has barely an “outpost” in Ukraine but there is a flourishing Catholic Church there - the UGCC. The UGCC has a disproportionate impact on Ukraine because of the education, experience and savvy of its clergy and lay people. The UGCC has a dynamism the Orthodox obediences struggle to match. And if you think the various Orthodox obediences, the schisms, will go away without the Catholic Church being somehow involved, then you’re completely out of touch with reality. Even if everything is OUTWARDLY by the Orthodox, there will be a Catholic legate somewhere in there helping to convince the two minor obediences to come to the table and talk.
“Next year we are set to convene what might turn out to be the Tenth Ecumenical Synod.”
Again, it seems that - unless I completely misunderstand you - that you are struggling with correct terminology. If it is a synod, then it won’t be a “Tenth Ecumenical Council” if that is what you meant and you accidently used the word “synod”. No, the Orthodox won’t call it an “Ecumenical Council” because they know they can’t. There can’t be any ecumenical councils without the Catholic Church, or specifically the Church of Rome. The Russians have already said NYET! http://www.pravmir.com/russian-orthodox-church-consider-2016-orthodox-council-ecumenical/
Also, the Tenth Ecumenical Council already happened in 1139. Also, yesterday you were saying the EP’s influence and importance was overblown by Catholics. He’s the one who will host and preside over the synod. Apparently he is instrumental for the success of what you tout as “what might turn out to be the Tenth Ecumenical Synod.” That’s pretty impressive for someone who’s just puffed up by Westerners don’t you think?
“The jurisdictional mess is on the agenda. Who knows what will happen?”
Not much most likely: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/3001/the_fragile_promise_of_the_panorthodox_council.aspx Especially if all the various obediences are not represented. Will the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and whoever else be even invited? If a body is unrecognized by the Orthodox patriarchs outside Ukraine, it won’t be invited to the synod. How can you solve a problem with an obedience at a synod if the leaders and representatives of that obedience are not at the synod?
“If the situation goes the way it is headed at this time, you can bet Catholics will be involved as an outside but familiar party who can bring the feuding Orthodox obediences together.”
LOL. The Church have been dealing with schisms since about 5 minutes after the Ascension. We do not require Roman direction on how to resolve them.
“Only a few people could do this: the pope or his delegate (such as His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, or a bishop from the Roman Church), or the EP - unless the UOC-MP decides to do something dramatic (which is doubtful).”
Ridiculous. So unlikely I think it borders on delusional. But on the off chance that the schismatics decide to bow and kiss the Pope’s ring that would pretty much confirm the rest of the Orthodox world in its judgments.
“First, there is no such thing as “UGRCC”. Perhaps you mean the UGCC? It would behoove you to learn and use the proper terminology and abbreviations don’t you think? “
There is no Ukrainian Greek Rite Catholic Church?
“Also, it doesn’t matter since the smaller obediences forming into one large obedience is probably the only way to solve the schism. Don’t you get it?”
No I don’t. The way to resolve the schism is for the schismatics to return to canonical obediance.
“Yes, but here the UOC-MP is the reason for the schisms. “
Well that certainly is the line being pushed by the West and Rome’s puppet church the UG(R)CC.
“You need to start thinking about how the situation actually exists. It will not be “Rome” but the Catholic Church. Rome has barely an “outpost” in Ukraine but there is a flourishing Catholic Church there - the UGCC. “
Semantics. The Papal communion is essentially one with a single bishop and a large number of mitered altar boys.
“And if you think the various Orthodox obediences, the schisms, will go away without the Catholic Church being somehow involved, then you’re completely out of touch with reality. Even if everything is OUTWARDLY by the Orthodox, there will be a Catholic legate somewhere in there helping to convince the two minor obediences to come to the table and talk.”
Moscow certainly hopes so, as this will allow them to paint the schismatics as Roman lap dogs.
“Again, it seems that - unless I completely misunderstand you - that you are struggling with correct terminology. If it is a synod, then it won’t be a “Tenth Ecumenical Council” if that is what you meant and you accidently used the word “synod”. “
Actually Synod is the proper Orthodox term. Although some have adopted the Western phrase, strictly speaking it is not correct and does not accurately reflect Orthodox ecclesiology. You really should learn correct terminology don’t ya think? http://www.stnicholasendicott.org/holy_ecumenical_synods.html
“No, the Orthodox won’t call it an “Ecumenical Council” because they know they can’t. There can’t be any ecumenical councils without the Catholic Church, or specifically the Church of Rome.”
BWAHAHAHAHA! ROFL. You should go into comedy.
“The Russians have already said NYET”
Actually no they haven’t. The Synod is not Ecumenical because it hasn’t happened yet. Russia will have its say when the Synod is over. For the record however, I would oppose calling it Ecumenical unless it makes some dogmatic clarification on doctrine, which MIGHT happen. Or it might not.
“Will the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and whoever else be even invited?”
Were the Old Catholics of Utrecht invited to either of the two Vatican Councils as voting members?
“LOL. The Church have been dealing with schisms since about 5 minutes after the Ascension. We do not require Roman direction on how to resolve them.”
I said nothing about direction. Maybe you should actually pay attention to what is written rather than to make things up that no one said?
“Ridiculous. So unlikely I think it borders on delusional.”
Except that it’s happened many times before.
“But on the off chance that the schismatics decide to bow and kiss the Pope’s ring that would pretty much confirm the rest of the Orthodox world in its judgments.”
And who said anything about anyone “kiss[ing] the Pope’s ring”? Are you so threatened by what I’m saying that you feel compelled to make things up that I never said? Really?
“There is no Ukrainian Greek Rite Catholic Church?”
No. There’s the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. http://news.ugcc.ua/en/ Are you unfamiliar with that fact too?
“No I don’t. The way to resolve the schism is for the schismatics to return to canonical obediance.”
And the chances of that happening when no one talks to them is zero. Do you get at least that?
“Well that certainly is the line being pushed by the West and Rome’s puppet church the UG(R)CC.”
And all those Ukrainians and other Orthodox who think the other obediences have point are all puppets, huh? What kind of a twilight paranoid world do you live in?
“Semantics. The Papal communion is essentially one with a single bishop and a large number of mitered altar boys.”
If so, then the “Orthodox Church” is nothing more than a collection of pitiful, cantankerous ethnophyletic eparchs with little or no impact on the world. Actually, that’s closer to the mark is it not?
“Moscow certainly hopes so, as this will allow them to paint the schismatics as Roman lap dogs.”
And who but the crazies will believe them? Who but the SSPVs and SSPXs of the world believe all that garbage that comes from sedevacantists, semi-privationists and other assorted fruits and nuts in the trady-wack side of things? Do Old Calendarists matter much? Why not?
“Actually Synod is the proper Orthodox term. Although some have adopted the Western phrase, strictly speaking it is not correct and does not accurately reflect Orthodox ecclesiology. You really should learn correct terminology don’t ya think? Semantics. The Papal communion is essentially one with a single bishop and a large number of mitered altar boys.
“And if you think the various Orthodox obediences, the schisms, will go away without the Catholic Church being somehow involved, then you’re completely out of touch with reality. Even if everything is OUTWARDLY by the Orthodox, there will be a Catholic legate somewhere in there helping to convince the two minor obediences to come to the table and talk.”
Moscow certainly hopes so, as this will allow them to paint the schismatics as Roman lap dogs.
“Again, it seems that - unless I completely misunderstand you - that you are struggling with correct terminology. If it is a synod, then it won’t be a “Tenth Ecumenical Council” if that is what you meant and you accidently used the word “synod”. “
Actually Synod is the proper Orthodox term. Although some have adopted the Western phrase, strictly speaking it is not correct and does not accurately reflect Orthodox ecclesiology. You really should learn correct terminology don’t ya think?”
And since it still won’t be ecumenical, I’m still right and you’re still wrong - as the Russians have already confirmed.
“BWAHAHAHAHA! ROFL. You should go into comedy.”
Maybe the Orthodox priests who have said that should become comedians?
“Actually no they haven’t. The Synod is not Ecumenical because it hasn’t happened yet. Russia will have its say when the Synod is over. For the record however, I would oppose calling it Ecumenical unless it makes some dogmatic clarification on doctrine, which MIGHT happen. Or it might not.”
Probably won’t. And the Russians won’t allow it.
“Were the Old Catholics of Utrecht invited to either of the two Vatican Councils as voting members?”
Who said anything about “voting members”? Again, you make up something NO ONE ACTUALLY SAID. I said “invited”. I didn’t say anything about participation or voting. If those minor obediences are not there to talk with the patriarchs then the problem will not be solved. Utrecht was solved in that it amounted to almost nothing in itself. Remember, the Church of Utrecht has only 5,000 members. Soon they won’t even have any validly ordained clergy. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate has 7 millions members and grew from comprising 18 to 22% of the population in 2014. That’s 9.6 million people. Someone will have to talk to them to make that schism end.
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