Posted on 07/08/2015 6:24:59 AM PDT by Gamecock
This thread is offered as a rebuttal to the thread titled 10 Things Catholics Are Tired of Hearing
Source
Article one: Answering 10 Catholic Complaints (part 1)
Article two: Answering 10 Catholic Complaints (part 2)
Some website called catholic365.com put up this article last month which was making the rounds in social media. I had never heard of the site, and I don’t make it my habit to read Romanist blogs. However one of my Catholic friends put it on her Facebook wall and was very happy about it. I read it, thought it to be a completely ridiculous set of arguments premised on falsehoods and fallacies (in other words, par for the course for Rome’s apologists), and moved on with my life. Why waste the brain cells?
However, it kept coming up. I would see it again and again. Most people I encountered touting the article acted like this was some sort of trump card in Romanist apologetics. I realized that even though I believed it to be amateurish (and my formerly catholic wife found it to be laughable), this was becoming red meat thrown to the catholic populous. The time had come to deal with it and expose it for what it really is.
It is called “10 Things Catholics Are Tired of Hearing.” Now, I’ll say this… if these are the types of arguments they hear all the time… guys, we need to do better. Most of what is responded to in their post are issues that eat around the edges and don’t go after the heart of why Godly men left this apostasy 500 years ago. Maybe this is because most evangelicals don’t share their faith, or don’t know their faith. Maybe this is because most evangelicals can’t articulate the Gospel. Maybe this is because most evangelicals like to discuss the small stuff and are scared of the “big” stuff. I don’t know, but what I DO know is that we have to do better. Each and every time we talk to a Catholic, the issue we should be discussing is the Gospel. Rome is heresy because it has a wrong Gospel. That wrong Gospel leads to 6 billion (probably) other heresies, but if you can make them see their need for the right Gospel, the rest will come easy. Keep your eyes on the prize, guys.
Nonetheless, let’s deal with the article:
1.“Catholics worship statues.”This stereotype is painful to hear. Not only is this completely false, but it is ludicrous. Despite the fact that there are 801 millions Protestants world-wide, according to the Pew Research Center, my rant will be geared towards our brothers and sisters in the United States. In this country, approximately 51.5% of people are Protestant Christians. Realistically, most of these families have pictures in their home, which is completely normal, right? Right. They have pictures of their loved ones, both living and deceased. Is it not hypocritical then to say that Catholics are idol worshipers, when these families have portraits of their loved ones on the walls? If these Protestant families can have pictures of Uncle Bernie and Mawmaw hanging on the wall, then most certainly the Church can present pictures of our beloved Jesus, his disciples, and the saints.
Yeah right. Anyone who has walked into a Catholic church before knows this is plainly ridiculous. I’m an Italian American who grew up among a Catholic family. The entirety of the religion seemed to me to be one form of statue worship after another. My relatives would pray to a statue at night, pin money to a statue at a festival, put a statue in their yard which was never supposed to fall over, put statues above their bed, light candles to statues in church, and construct ENTIRE PRAYER SERVICES to a statue.
Just look at the horror in the faces of the people when this happened:Link
I mean, good grief!
But, let’s deal with their argument here. Yeah, we all have pictures of Uncle Bernie and MeeMaw in our homes. We might value those pictures a great deal. We don’t say prayers to those pictures. We don’t light candles to those pictures. We don’t think those pictures are anything other than… PICTURES. It’s not the same thing. I may have a picture of my Mom in my house, but my family isn’t carrying a statue of my Mom into the family room on a Wooden Platform and singing songs about it. Give me a break!
2.“Catholics pray to Mary instead of God.”
This is a very common misconception throughout the Protestant community, and while I can understand why it is, I am also disheartened that many jump to such a harsh conclusion of the Catholic faith. We don’t pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us, just as a Protestant asks their deceased grandparent/parent to watch over them.
You don’t pray to Mary, huh? Are you sure about that?
These things littered the funerals of my childhood and took me less than a minute on Google to find. I remember collecting them and keeping them like baseball cards. I used to get excited when there would be new ones at someone’s funeral. They had them for all of the “saints”, but especially for Mary. Praying to Mary is the most catholic thing about being catholic. Claiming you don’t pray to Mary is utterly absurd and demonstrably false. And for the record, if a Protestant friend of mine was asking a deceased family member to watch over them, I’d plead with them to repent.
3. “The saints can’t hear your prayers, because they are dead.”I beg to differ. Since when is anyone who is in Heaven considered dead? We call it the afterLIFE for a reason. In fact, there is biblical proof that the saints can hear our prays:
-Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.”
-Revelation 8:3-4 “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand.”
Oh the eisogesis!
Revelation 5:8 has elders holding bowls of incense which are prayers of the saints. Revelation 8:3-4 has the prayers represented as incense again, and this time offered up by an angel (saints are nowhere to be found). At what point in either verse do we see those offering the incense hearing the prayers? It’s just not there. The reason you think it’s there is because you want it to be.
4. “Mother Mary isn’t important; she’s just like anyone else.”
If our Blessed Mother isn’t important, then every female would have had an immaculate conception. For this reason, that is why the declarative statement above doesn’t make sense. Of course Mother Mary is important, she gave birth to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. What is so amazing about the Catholic faith is the fact that we recognize the importance of Mary, and we honor her accordingly. She is a role model and saint for all Christians to look up to, because she submitted to God completely. Until the day another woman gives birth to Jesus, no one will ever be just like Mary. She is a very special, holy woman.
I have no doubt Mary plays a special role in the life of Jesus. The Lord and Savior of the world called her Mom. No doubt he loved her like I love my Mom, only He was a perfect son and I’m… well… not. None of this in anyway confers anything unique about Mary as a person. She was a lady like any other. She was favorable in the eyes of God, but so was Ruth. She was used of God in a special way, but so was Esther. She was a Godly woman, but so was Lydia. Ruth, Esther, and Lydia were just women. Sisters in Christ, no doubt! Honorable women? Absolutely! Higher than all other humans, co-redemptive, and mediatory? No way!
Just a little FYI for our Catholic Friends, Mary sinned and thought her son was crazy: “{21} When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.” … {31} Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. {32} A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.”” {Mar 3:21, 31-32 NASB}
Wait wait wait… you mean Jesus had BROTHERS too? So that means Mary wasn’t a perpetual virgin either? How ’bout that! Funny things happen when you read the Bible.
5. “Catholics made up all their rules.” Every single tradition we have in the Catholic Church, namely during Mass, has biblical roots. Not to mention the fact that Jesus was the founder of our Church. I don’t know about you, but Jesus doesn’t make mistakes.
Every single tradition has Biblical roots, huh? Great. Show me the part of the Bible about Mary being a co-redeemer. Show me the part of the Bible where the priest is another Christ. Show me where we are to pray to the saints. Show me the need for a re-sacrifice of Christ from Scripture. Explain to me from the Bible the practice of indulgences. Let’s start with these five things and see how well your “biblical roots” hold up.
Continuing on the theme from yesterday, we need to avoid these types of arguments when talking to followers of false religions such as Roman Catholicism. The issue is and always will be the Gospel. Roman Catholics do not believe the Gospel in the Bible, they believe a false one. We ill-serve our Lord if we center our evangelism to Catholics on how they’re wrong to pray to Mary (or whatever may come up) and miss the Gospel. Preach the Gospel, and if they have been appointed unto belief, they’ll stop praying to Mary soon enough.
That said, we can effectively deal with these types of complaints from Rome and its apologists. They don’t have good arguments, and too much of their silly apologetic is built upon falsehood and revisionist history. So, continuing with the catholic365 article…
6. “God said to confess sins to Him, not a priest.” This one is a personal favorite of mine. Drum roll please.-James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
It is true that we pray directly to God, and ask Him to forgiveness, however for sins (mortal) we do as Jesus commands and confess it to one another (our priests). Jesus said this directly to his disciples, so through Him, they were able to forgive sins. This power passed down to every priest, and so on and so forth. That felt good.
Well, we’re all glad you feel better. While you have your Bible open to James, let’s examine the context of what you say is the justification for the abomination that is Catholic Confession. Verse 13 begins a new thought for James as he asks if anyone is suffering, and directs those sufferers to pray. The cheerful? They should sing praises. The sick? They should call the elders who should pray for the sickly and anoint them with oil. There’s no power or anything special in the oil, by the way. It was a medical practice of the day for bumps and bruises. Undoubtedly it carries with it the picture of ceremony familiar to Jews, but at best can simply be understood as care and encouragement from the elders. James tells us the prayer of the faithful will restore the one who is sick and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven. So, we ought to confess sins in a situation like that so others can pray for us.
Guess what isn’t there. A formula for how sins are forgiven in general. No, rather we have instructions for a particular set of circumstances. Are we honestly to believe that James, dealing with a particular situation, was setting up a formula for how sin was to be forgiven in contradiction to every other instance where we see forgiveness in the rest of Scripture?
As for the supposed power to forgive sins given to your priests directly from the Apostles… the statement is rife with pre-suppositions that must be dealt with. First, there is no apostolic succession involving your priests. Destroying the myth of the Apostolic papacy is another post for another time, but no serious historian actually believes Peter was the Bishop of Rome let alone started some sort of succession prior to his death. So, no, the “power” to forgive sins that Jesus supposedly gave your church is nothing more than an ability to bind and loose in the church in general (Matt 18:18-19). In other words, whatever the church acknowledges on Earth is acknowledged in Heaven. But the power to actually forgive is reserved for God alone (Mar 2:7, Luk 5:21). God forgives, we can count on it, and when we recognize it and preach it on Earth we can have every confidence it is already so in Heaven. Quite a different picture than relying on a priest to forgive, isn’t it?
7. “Catholicism is a cult.”Jesus Christ founded this Church more than 2,000 years ago, I would hardly call it a cult.
Actually I’m with you on this one. Roman Catholicism is a false religion, but not a cult. A cult has far more control over it’s adherents, and since your Jesuits can hardly get along with your Franciscans, which hardly acknowledge the other sects, I’d say that’s a good argument Catholicism isn’t a cult. I’d also say since your Popes contradict each other, even anathematizing each other, that you hardly have the uniformity often found in cults. So, congratulations, we agree.
As for the being founded over 2,000 years ago? Got some news for you, the first 3 centuries of Christianity looked nothing like your religion and we’re not even sure Rome had a bishop for some of that time. No, you’re religion is a product of Roman societal norms. A slow and gradual investment of (false) importance into the church in the city of Rome and its leaders. Hardly the near eastern religion that turned the world upside down (Act 17:6). Rather, the European religion that turned to the world and became upside down.
8. “Catholics aren’t Christians.”No, my Catholic friends, you don’t follow Christ’s teachings. There are a number of places I could go for this, but let’s examine the reasons we protestants broke away from the Catholic church to begin with. Did Christ teach that Scripture Alone (2Tim 3:16-17) reveals that salvation is in Christ Alone (Jhn 14:6), through Faith Alone (Rom 3;28), by Grace alone (Eph 2:8-9)… plus nothing(1Co 2:1-5)… for the Glory of God alone? Or did Christ teach that Scripture needs tradition and a magisterium in order for the church to act as a gateway to Christ AND Mary for salvation by religious acts, through ritual for the entrenchment of the Roman papal order?The word Christian is associated with anyone who follows Christ’s teachings, and since the Catholic Church does just that then we are to be called Christians. Not to mention Catholics were actually the first Christians.
9. “Catholics added books to the Holy Bible.”
This one is so hilarious it hurts. For 300 years there was no Bible, only random writings from the prophets like St.Peter etc, until the Catholic monks compiled and canonized what is now known today as the Holy Bible. (That is until the Protestant Reformation occurred, in which one man *Martin Luther* removed 7 books). Ouch.
1) “For 300 years there was no Bible.” Oh, so I guess all those church fathers were just lucky guessers then? How about all that manuscript evidence?
2) “Until Catholic Monks compiled and canonized what is known today as the Holy Bible.” Ok, my first question is if that’s true, then why do you need other authorities? If it’s your book, why turn to tradition? But it’s not your book, is it? And you all know that, don’t you? Monks didn’t exist for quite sometime after the first century and by the time they did, the Bible was prolific throughout the world.
3) “(That is until the Protestant Reformation occurred, in which one man *Martin Luther* removed 7 books). Ouch.” Good grief. The books he took out were added by the magisterium to find justification for doctrines that weren’t found in what everyone already knew to be the Scriptures. The books your people added? Gnostic heresies and Inter-testamental books known from the Apocrypha of which only a small number of the faithful ever acknowledged as being inspired by God. The thing that makes the Bible the Bible is that the faithful always recognized it as being divinely inspired. So when a book like the Shepherd of Hermes came along, not written by an apostle, contradicting what was already Scripture, and of dubious lineage, most Christians knew enough to reject it.
It makes me sick that, in order to keep power, a church claiming to be the one true church takes credit for the inspired Word of God. How dare you?
10. “Catholics believe you can pay your way into Heaven.”
We definitely do not. That is a huge misconception which occurred during the Protestant Reformation.
Well you got one part right, it did happen during the Protestant Reformation. Tell us, how did you guys build that Basilica in Rome? I’m sure donations just poured in because people thought you guys were just the bee’s knees, right? Had nothing to do with promises of heaven or coins in cups ringing and souls springing, did it? NAH!
My message to my Catholic friends is to repent. You cannot count on the teachings of Rome to save you eternally. You can only count on He who has overcome death and offered Himself up on your behalf… and only in Him ALONE. Repent, trust Christ, and leave this wretched life behind.
It is because of the numbers, that is why. But still, Christians have fallen down on the job.
Great Post Catholicism also has many pagan symbols and practices interwoven into their faith. Look it up. Glad Im Baptist and pray for the Catholics, alot are good folks but have grown up in this ideology.
Catholic Paganism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxfmedgtKpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erlIoFmz_AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGuBY3dhhfo
Educate yourselves.
Guess that leaves Paul out of the mix??
He was called directly by Christ.
Can you with 100% certainty say that non-Catholic pastors are not called by Christ to preach??
WHOA!!! You're saying this guy's not catholic????
A couple other puzzlers that make no sense:
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Christ was obviously condemning using “father” as an honorific, since He repeatedly used “father” to describe the male parent...
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Catholics rather boldly teach that their traditions trump Scripture wherever the two are in dispute... And that’s a rather dire warning Christ gives for holding to tradition over God’s commandments. Tradition that trumps Scripture therefore definitionally can NOT be from the Holy Spirit.
So what? The apostles said "For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed" and "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you".
There is no unimpeachable source of Christian truth outside of the words of the apostles as they were originally gifted to the church militant. There is no unimpeachable source for the words of the apostles outside of the Bible.
The apostles never said they would appoint successors that would never teach wrong. 2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."
Just because they were entrusted, does not mean that there is a promise that they will not err. Notice the requirement of many witnesses? You can't just make stuff up and say it's from the apostles.
1 Timothy 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
Another day, another Proddie lie.
He evidently didn't tell Paul:
For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. -- 1 Cor 4:15, NASB
I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment … -- Phlm 10, NASB
Catholics rather boldly teach that their traditions trump Scripture wherever the two are in dispute
Well, no, actually we teach no such thing. But we're happy to teach that "our traditions" trump *your* erroneous understanding of Scripture.
Typical Papist personal attack.
From the link:
the Mass is called a divine sacrifice (CCC, 1068) that is done over and over again. We are told that "the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice"; (CCC, 1367); that it is an unbloody offering that is proptiatory, (CCC, 1367); that it can make reparation of sins, (CCC, 1414); and is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: "Sacrifice of the Mass").If it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, then it's Roman Catholic!
Actually, the original Greek of 1 Cor. 4:15 didn’t use the word “pater” at all. Instead, there were many “instructors/tutors” and he “regenerated/conceived/etc.” them through the gospel. “Pater” wasn’t used in Phm 10 either. It’s using “father” as an honorific that Christ condemned, and Paul carefully didn’t use that word, the NASB notwithstanding.
So Catholics go to a man they shouldn’t call “father,” and he absolves them of sin he has no ability to absolve, if they repetitively pray five Hail Marys. Nope. Don’t see any tradition there at all. Every bit of that is supported in Scripture. /s
Which brings up another puzzler:
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Multiple Hail Marys?
Correction. “Pater” was used in 1 Cor. 4:15. But Paul rather carefully doesn’t call himself a “father.”
"This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare"
(1 Tim 1:18)
and here :
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus"
(2 Tim. 2:1)
or here :
"But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel"
(Phil. 2:22).
There are a good many more, but go ahead, pretend to know what you're talking about.
The media and government gin up support for their attacks on Christianity and the useful idiots of anti-Catholicism jump on the media bandwagon to help them while their fellow Christians perish in the heresy of Korah.
But the Catholic Catechism says Islam ok....lmao what a joke. Its Roman pagan garbage mixed with Christianity for the roman empire under Constantine. The apostles and Jesus had nothing to do with all these satanic symbolism and practices.
My last reply was sent to the wrong person, no edit key is a killer ...
Oh really? Greek - patér - Definition: father, (Heavenly) Father, ancestor, elder, senior. [http://biblehub.com/greek/3962.htm]
Are you claiming to know specifically which definition Paul meant?
No, it doesn't, but thanks for making it clear a large part of the problem around here is that people believe whatever trash an anti-Catholic site pumps our or are themselves incapable of reading more than a single sentence and understanding what they just read.
Notice - I'm responding to a change of subject, the usual refuge of the anti-Catholic dolts deluded into their rut and the dedicated anti-Christian propagandists who feed such dolts.
you have a nice day now, giggles.
Enjoy your pagan symbols, statues and practices. Cheers.
The anti-Catholic crowd is so predictable, especially when confronted by Scripture from the portion of the Bible they haven't thrown out yet or choose to ignore.
“The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, quoting Lumen Gentium 16.)”
I guess facts dont matter sounds like what liberals do when presented with facts.
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