Is Your Church Worshipping in Vain?

Self ^ | LearsFool

[roamer_1]

What we find in the Bible are the practices and commands given to the churches by the apostles whom Jesus chose and equipped to teach on His behalf. One of these practices was assembling on the first day of the week to partake in the memorial feast, etc.

How does that remove the command to keep the Sabbath Day?

[Diego1618]

"When therefore ye assemble yourselves together, it is not possible to eat the Lord's supper: for in your eating each one taketh before other his own supper; and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you? In this I praise you not." - 1 Cor. 11:20-22

This is really a stretch.

Where in the world are we told to ignore the Sabbaths of Yahweh and begin worshiping on Sunday?

[roamer_1]

IF the dissolution of the 4th commandment was taught by Christ and understood as such by his followers then it begs a couple of questions:

More than that, how does Yeshua 'add and remove' from Torah without being a false prophet? Necessarily, he can't have.

[Diego1618]

"let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church." - 1 Cor. 14:34-35

Maybe you didn't understand my original question. It was ....."Where in scripture are we told to worship on Sunday?"

I'll give you a hint. No where!

[Diego1618]

That should be [Leviticus 23:15-16]. Sorry..........

[Iscool]

That's the tradition all right....but not what christ in the bible says to do.

If we were under the law...We are not under the law...

God doesn't care what day we worship (attend church)...He'd rather we worship every day...

[Diego1618]

While the old covenant instructed the Jews to observe the Sabbath, the new covenant contains no such instruction. What we find in the Scriptures instead is the practice of and commands relating to the assembling of the saints on the first day of the week.

You are evidently unaware of what I'm about to tell you....but the words, "First Day of the Week" appear no where in the Greek New Testament. Oh....they appear in later translations after mankind decided to mask the original "Sabbath" worship of the early Church by meeting on Sundays. This, of course was to eliminate persecution from the Roman Empire who had a vendetta against anything "JOOOOOOISH".

The "Proto Catholic Church" (prior to Nicaea) could then tell the Roman Legions they had nothing to do with that religion (Judaism) because we even worship on a different day. And as time went on the Empire and the Church became one and the same.....and to continue their degradation of the customs and Laws of early Apostolic Christianity....they even came up with their own "Feast Days" and disregarded the instructions of [Leviticus 23] regarding Yahweh's Feast Days.

Then.....to top things off they told everyone it was now O.K. to begin eating Spiders, Vultures, Bottom Dwellers and Pigs because the Church said [Leviticus 11] no longer applied to the enlightened.

[Iscool]

I don’t see these questions answered in the Bible. I don’t see the Bible saying explicitly “It doesn’t matter how you worship the Lord” either.

Probably because they are insignificant, meaningless questions...

It’s (the bible) just silent on the matter. Scripture is silent on how it should be done, how one of the most important things we SHOULD be doing is done, even in the most basic of questions above.

This is a false claim made to people who do not read the bible...One who actually spends time in the bible knows the bible is not silent on worship...

These answers are not forthcoming from Scripture alone.

They most certainly are...You can't learn the things of God from human wisdom...

Here's a few things on how to worship...

[Springfield Reformer]

False dilemma. No one here is advocating disobeying God.  At least not that I know of. But to be made pleasing to God, Paul is very clear that it is faith, not works, that accomplishes our justification.  You raise the example of Abraham.  So did Paul, but in opposite effect:

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Romans 4:1-5)

This event happened well before Abraham offered up Isaac. That's how it is.  Believers are justified by faith first, after the Lord opens their heart.  Then, because they have true faith, they act on it. So of course they are obedient.  This is not really that hard.

But actually, it is hard if all one has is the natural man:

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:7-8)

OK, maybe not hard.  Paul is really saying it's impossible.  Which is what I suspect is behind most systems that emphasize legal performance over faith and the new birth.  Campbellism is a great example.  If the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration has been written out of the script, what else is there but human performance?  But why is the Holy Spirit's role in conversion eliminated in this way? I think it is because of a deep-seated fear of the inability to control Him. That's not a good feeling for most folks.  As natural humans, we want some five step formula to deal with our needs.  It doesn't matter if it's easy or hard, as long as we can control it.

But the whole point of the law was to teach us we are failures at that sort of control.  Not only can we not control God.  We can't even control ourselves. Sin comes unbidden to the mind in a thousand different ways, and everyone reading this has no doubt experienced that truth. So we need a supernatural intervention from God Himself to get out of this mess.  Words alone will not do it. We need God's miracle-working Messiah.  Without the miracle of the new birth in our lives, we are truly lost.

At that point we have two choices.  We can, like the man whom Jesus said went home justified, beg for mercy, offering nothing of our own performance as even close to pleasing God.  When the people came to Jesus for miraculous healing, did they presume, any one of them, that they had earned it by their performance? Not. One. Person.  We are in the same boat.  We come to the same Jesus, and appeal for the same miracle power to heal us of our sins, and wash away all our guilt in the blood of the cross.  Jesus has already told us all who come to Him will in no way be cast out. It is the one miracle we can have total assurance God will perform on our behalf.  We only need to ask for it, in faith believing.

Or we can find ways to take back control, to assert that if we, in our own natural powers, do x, y, z, God should be satisfied with that. But that is a losing proposition. As Paul says, trying to strike such a bargain with God turns grace into debt, and we will always come up short at the end of that sorry game. Always.

Peace,

SR





 

[roamer_1]

I don’t see these questions answered in the Bible. I don’t see the Bible saying explicitly “It doesn’t matter how you worship the Lord” either.

Quite untrue - Torah is quite specific.

[LearsFool]

We can tell what the Greek phrase "mia sabbaton" means from passages like Matt. 28:1:

"Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (mia sabbaton), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."

If "mia sabbaton" meant the Sabbath day, then this passage would be saying: "Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the sabbath day..." - which would be nonsense. No, what Matthew is telling us here is that the week was at an end. And what comes next? The first day of the week.

Perhaps the misunderstanding arises from confusing the seventh day with the seven-day week. Note the Pharisee's use of "sabbaton" when he says, in Luke 18:12,

"I fast twice in the week (sabbaton)"

If "sabbaton" meant the Sabbath, then he would be saying, "I fast twice on the Sabbath" - which again wouldn't make sense. (Unless he's "fasting" between breakfast and lunch, and then "fasting" again between lunch and dinner! ;-)

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The Jews also wanted to bind the keeping of the Law of Moses, with its feast days, Sabbath-keeping, dietary laws, circumcision, etc. The apostle Paul strove with them all through his preaching career, even after the question had been settled by Christ's inspired men in Acts 15.

Finally Paul simply warns the saints against such men, with words such as these to the Colossians:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's." - Col. 2:16-17

Which would you rather cling to, the shadow or the thing which casts the shadow? It would certainly be strange to cling to the shadow and ignore the thing casting the shadow. But it's what the Jews did whom Paul warned the disciples about.

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As for when those ordinances came to an end, it was when the new covenant came into effect. This was foretold by Jeremiah in Jer. 31:31:

"Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

Most all the book of Hebrews is a contrast between the old covenant and the new, in which the superiority of the new is demonstrated time and again. Interspersed are warnings upon warnings against returning to the old covenant.

If you like, we can look deeper into that book and see those comparisons/contrasts.

[LearsFool]

My apologies, I should've included you in this reply.

[LearsFool]

One more post, if I may, and then wait for your reply.

Maybe you didn't understand my original question. It was ....."Where in scripture are we told to worship on Sunday?"

As I said - which you quoted when you asked that question: What we find in the Scriptures instead is the practice of and commands relating to the assembling of the saints on the first day of the week.

The practice of the disciples taught by Christ's inspired apostles was to assemble on Sunday. They were instructed to do certain things - and not do other things - in that assembly. If we wish to follow Christ, we must follow His apostles. If we reject them and their teaching, we reject Him. (Matt. 10:40, 1 John 1:3, etc.)

[LearsFool]

You’re right about the false dilemma. But it’s not in what Jesus said concerning those whose hearts were far from God.

Rather, the false dilemma is between Abraham’s faith and his obedience. You see, faith is obedient.

Those God rebuked through Isaiah, and whom Jesus rebuked in the passage in the OP, claimed to have faith, honoring God with their lips. But their hearts were so far from Him that their worship was mere man-made commandments.

Abraham wasn’t like that. His heart drew nigh unto God; he obeyed God; he trusted and believed God. When God told him to leave Ur of the Chaldees, he did it. When God gave him a promise, he believed it. When God told him to sacrifice Isaac, he did it. When God commanded, he obeyed.

Some people today want to say, “I have faith, but I don’t want to obey.” Was Abraham like that? No. Jesus called such people hypocrites, merely honoring God with their lips.

[Diego1618]

We can tell what the Greek phrase "mia sabbaton" means from passages like Matt. 28:1:

Robert Young was a 19th Century Hebrew/Greek scholar with a life long ambition to translate the scriptures literally. He was a Protestant (Free Church of Scotland) and an accomplished linguist with extensive training in both Languages.

He is the author of "Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible" and this publication has the distinction of being found in most theological libraries. In addition, he is also the author of Young's Literal Translation of the scriptures.....considered one of (if not the best) in publication.

Young's Literal: [Matthew 28:1]1And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Mark 16:2] 2and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

[Luke 24:1]1And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,

[John 20:1]1And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

All four gospels agree (in the Greek) that it was Saturday morning....the first Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost....when the women arrived at the tomb finding it empty and Messiah already risen.

The idea of this happening on Sunday morning did not surface until the "Proto Catholic" Church decided to disassociate themselves from their Hebrew brethren.

You do not find in the Greek scriptures any hint of a Sunday morning resurrection.......but the Church has taught this false tradition for over 1700 years. The first of the Sabbaths (noted in each gospel) speaks of the first weekly Sabbath in the Count of the Omer to Pentecost.

[ravenwolf]

Do you have any favorite Christian/Biblical movies?

---

I have some biblical the robe, Demetrius and the gladiators`, the ten ,commandments and a couple more.

I do not have any of the life of Christ as i have not ran across any that i really wanted to watch.

[roamer_1]

Of course, I will agree with you - this is language about the Feast of Weeks. The first Sabbath in the Week of Sabbaths... Thanks for a concise explanation.

[Salvation]

Get a copy and watch it. Superb movie.

[Diego1618]

If "mia sabbaton" meant the Sabbath day, then this passage would be saying: "Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the sabbath day..." - which would be nonsense. No, what Matthew is telling us here is that the week was at an end. And what comes next? The first day of the week.

First of all....a correction in Greek terms. The word is not Sabbaton (σάββατον)....it is Sabbatwn (σαββάτων) and it is plural!

The first word in [Matthew 28:1] is Ὀψὲ and it is generally translated as "After" in many bibles but it mainly references time here so the correct translation is "Late".

Here is the correct translation for [Matthew 28:1] And on the later of the Sabbaths, at the dawn to one of the Sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the tomb,

There were two (2) Sabbaths crucifixion week....with a day in between them. The First was the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread and the second....the weekly Sabbath.

The women are arriving to an empty tomb (at sunrise) on the first weekly Sabbath between Pesach and Shavuot.

[Diego1618]

Finally Paul simply warns the saints against such men, with words such as these to the Colossians: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's." - Col. 2:16-17

[Colossians 2:16]16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I've highlighted two words in this passage which have been inserted by the translators to bring the Greek more in line with their settled theology. These words are shown in italics in your KJV.

But first.....ask yourself.....why does Paul make this statement....leaving it somewhat muddled as he does? Why didn't he clearly say one way or the other that these practices were now unnecessary? The Colossian Church was a Gentile Church so this would have been a terrific opportunity for Paul to make it very plain that these practices were no longer binding upon Yahweh's people. This Epistle could have been the defining moment for this new theology......the abolition of Sabbath observances and any and all recognition of dietary regulations!

But Paul......nowhere in this Book (or any other scripture) says that. What does he say instead? What question is he here addressing? Looking at the rest of the chapter it becomes very clear that the subject is something entirely different.

The issues are; [2:4] Men beguiling you with enticing words; [2:8] Men spoiling you with philosophy and deceit....after the traditions of the world and not after Christ; [2:18] False humility of mankind and "Angel" worship; [2:22] Commandments and doctrines of men.

So....these are the main points of [Colossians 2] and they all deal with issues from mankind....not Yahweh. Was Paul a Liar? Was he an idiot? Some evidently think that Paul doesn't know that the Holy Days listed in scripture [Leviticus 23] were created by Yahweh. Some probably think that Paul was an uneducated pagan who didn't know scripture from a dime novel because they evidently believe that Paul thinks the "Word of Yahweh" is a rudiment of this world.

If they believe that Paul is saying that these Yahweh ordained, Yahweh commanded Holy Days are a "rudiment of this world, philosophy of men and vain human deceit", it is direct blasphemy against Yahweh....or an exercise in human deception.

What we need to understand here is that Paul is addressing "ascetic Gnosticism" which had begun to creep into the Colossian Church. He had been informed of it by Epaphras [Colossians 1:7] who had evangelized the Colossian Church and was currently visiting Paul in Rome while Paul was incarcerated. Paul had never been to Colossae but was well aware of the problems there.

The Colossian coverts to Christianity had previously been pagan idol worshipers and adherents of Greek asceticism and were now being criticized by their pagan neighbors for doing what?

They were being ostracized by their pagan neighbors for doing exactly what some folks think Paul was telling them not to do. Think! They never did these things before so why would Paul even mention them? What this verse really teaches is....."Don't let these pagan gnostics JUDGE you for HOW you are keeping YAHWEH'S holy days". In other words.....it's an affirmation that these folks were actually observing Yahweh's ordained dietary restrictions and his ordained Sabbaths. They had been taught these things by Epaphras [4:12][Philemon 23].

Now.....about the added words of the translators. Let's read the verse as the Holy Spirit inspired it....without the added words of the KJV translators.

[Colossians 2:16-17] 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths (plural), 17which are a shadow of things to come..... but the body of Christ.

All one sentence. What's the body of Christ? [I Corinthians 12:27].

Paul is saying, Don't let anybody criticize you for observing Yahweh's dietary laws and specially ordained Feast days (SABBATWN) except members of the Church! That's what the "Body of Christ" is......the church! The word "days" doesn't even appear in the Greek manuscript. It is simply referring to Yahweh's Holy Sabbaths (SABBATWN).