Is There A Purgatory?

The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.

Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).

Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).

If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"

Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.

In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.

It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."

One more?

Here's another quote from a different message that gives me pause:

as for those who call themselves Mine yet are offensive when it comes to spiritual matters, I tell them: "if you were blind you would not be guilty, but since you say, 'we see and can tell', your guilt remains!" how many times will I have to reproach them for their incredulity and obstinacy?

That's painting with a fairly wide brush for our world. Plenty of guilty to raise their hands to that one, but speaking only for my own wretched self, sadly, mine is raised very high.

The central theme, to me, seems to be about those who know the Law, but don't get or live the Love, as He says here:

it is because you have not the Holy Spirit who could have risen you from darkness into His Light enlightening your soul to see the Son together with the Father manifesting themselves to you;

I think He is saying that we have to have both, the Father and the Son, the Law and the Love, and one without the error leads to error.

For whatever reason(s), people can't get their heads around Jesus' truth, then or now, me included. From experience, I know that this requires something else, something beyond rational thought.

From a practical standpoint, what good is a tool if you never use it? What good is a belief if you never apply it?

And, you can tell just by people watching over time. People do what they mean, regardless of what they say they mean, and the inner light they follow is obvious by how someone "is".

Anyway, that's my evolving understanding from watching people and comparing what I see and have seen to what little I understand about what I've read so far.

To any who might be offended by the quotes I posted, I sincerely regret that you are offended. That is not my intent.

I went to the site you posted, GBA. You probably were not aware of the following, so I post it in hopes of deterring any naïve away.

What follows is what is meant to be corroborating testimony. The whole thing is absolutely disturbing.

http://www.tlig.org/en/spirituality/passion/ :

It was unreal that we could be witnessing what seemed to have the qualities of the Lord’s Passion. With the torso being off the floor, an image I saw was of one being on the cross. Her moans and cries of agony were interrupted at times with the words, “peace ... peace...peace.” (repeated many times). I do not know how long this lasted but her body stopped moving and she hung there suspended off the floor as I described.

At some point later her torso was again flat on the floor and she raised both hands. Her eyes opened and her face became radiant in a manner I had not seen before. She called out very softly “Abba” with her hands raised. Her lips moved as if talking but I heard nothing. She became quiet again but I could tell she was still suffering. At one point she kind of hung her head to the left and became very still, almost as if dead.

She uttered, hardly audibly, the words, “I am thirsty.” Father O’Carroll got a glass of water to give her a drink but she could not take it. I was kneeling behind her right shoulder. She was laying with her arms outstretched and appeared to be in less pain. She raised her hand in the form of a blessing - holding her fingers like Jesus is sometimes depicted giving a blessing. She then very slowly blessed each of us. Very agonizingly and determinedly, as she moved her right arm, she would point at each person, but never look at them. I had the awareness as though Jesus was blessing us from the Cross. She became still, crossed her hands and laid them high on her stomach. She laid very still, with her eyes open. At this point one of the party had to leave.

**********

Further, http://www.tlig.org/en/news/2015-07-10/2328/ :

Canvas size: 48 inches x 36 inches (122 cm x 92 cm)
•Each print is hand signed by the artist, Vassula Ryden, as a faithful reproduction of the original oil painting
•An original Limited Edition Print on Canvas strictly limited to 200 prints
•A certificate of authenticity will accompany each canvas
•Only 5 copies will be available at the Pilgrimage
•Price: 890 euro or 1000 US$ a piece
•Cheques are not accepted
•Proceeds go to the True Life in God worldwide mission

**********

GBA, I beg you, be careful for your soul.

GBA, I agree with you.

John said it very well:

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Channeled messages must answer to Scripture. They never square because God does not use such language. Note the different language of your excerpt and the things Jesus actually said. Disconnect. New Age language ALWAYS falls flat before the living and active Sword of the Spirit.

What is does, through self-righteous appeal, is to draw you AWAY from the firm foundation of Scripture through lofty claptrap. The Lord would never use a medium to “correct” someone’s spiritual misunderstandings, as he has clearly explained that seers, diviners, sorcerers and necromancers are of the devil.

The miracle working power of Christ, and that he gave to his apostles, is a million miles away from the bizarre communications of those who delude themselves that they are contemporary possessors. I see no record in Scripture of anything remotely resembling the “ministry” of tired&retired.

“I thought that was what you were saying...”

Yeah, I thought it was, too. A cursed works gospel is no gospel at all. But if Satan is after anything it is to corrupt the Good News. In that pursuit he offers “extra” to anyone fool enough to listen.

Don’t.

It's taken me a long while, a lot of "mistakes" and my own getting in the way, but I now have a sense of what that means and understand the testimonies, yours and others', of those who have spoken of the almost overwhelming LOVE one has for others, even for those who come against them.

I've witnessed it in action, too, with one teacher in particular. Impressive, but I truly didn't understand what I was seeing all those many years ago until recently, and then only barely. In the real world I can tune a radio, but I have had much trouble tuning my own inner radio transceiver.

I hate to think what that honestly says about my soul and its progression, but it is what it is. Free will in the hands of the untrained and unsuspecting, doncha know.

Your sharing your experiences have added to my understanding.

(As an aside, I've read somewhere that a prophet is never welcome in his hometown, but have had trouble with that concept, too. Thanks for the demo.)

“Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.”—Colossians 2

“Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth.”—Titus 1:13-14

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.”—2 John 1:9-11

Prophets without honor...or False prophets without the Truth (or just enough to mimic)? Note Paul’s lambasting of false humility. Note, too, the “Apostle of Love”’s rather mean instructions for dealing with false teachers. What do you wanna bet they had a persecution complex, too?

“In the real world I can tune a radio, but I have had much trouble tuning my own inner radio transceiver.”

Just knowing that you have the ability to do so is a big step in the process. Prayer is the best way to learn the process. Do it not just daily, but always in everything that you do. Prayer leads to meditation where you begin to hear God’s answers to you. When the feeling of Love totally fills your being, time will collapse and you will see the world through a different lens.

When you do pray from your heart and tune your transceiver to a higher level, you become one with the Holy spirit and your conscious awareness expands to the point that you realize that “We seeds of Our Father on earth” are all one.” It does not take years of work, as even the vineyard workers who arrive during the last hour receive the same wages.

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Let anyone who has eyes see and anyone who has ears hear.

Thanks for your concern and your thoughts. Both are appreciated!

For what it's worth, you might find this message interesting.

The Ten Commandments
August 5 - 29, 1990

^^That^^ one definitely got my attention!

I know what I posted is uncommon for many and unnerving for many who see things from a certain point of view. I didn't expect nor understand it when I first found this material and wanted to share it with everyone, but now I do a bit.

I offer you this: If Satan's plan to take my soul is by using the messages in True Life In God to inspire me so as to get me to pray to, talk with and generally give thanks to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for virtually everything in my life, good and bad, then it's working!

Devilishly clever fellow, that Satan. Never saw that one coming!

(Works for me, but "Your mileage may vary")

(I appreciate your respectful attitude in this exchange, GBA. Thanks.)

I see your point, but outright deception would never work. Subtlety is the way now and always has been.

With the benefit of hindsight, I saw that every time I was tripped up it was done with a lot of truth and just a little lie. Little, but extremely significant.

When the “visitation” (? sorry, but I don’t know what to call it) took place, “Jesus” forgot something:

“it is said: you shall have no gods except Me, do not follow other gods, gods of peoples round you, but men have transgressed My Father’s first Commandment declaring their freedom openly by means and encouragements of the black beasts, upon whose heads will lie the blood of many;

“do not call My Name in vain, is the following Commandment;”

*****

Now, I go to double-check and I find:

Exodus 20

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

What think you? Was it perhaps another “Jesus” who’d had a bad day and made a mistake?

This post is pure gold and resonates with what I've learned in life and in the messages.

In fact, a few of the first messages were her being taught how to pray. Personally, I had figured prayer was automatically received no matter how it was sent, I guess, but that's apparently not the case at all.

It's exactly like what you said: Pray from the heart. And, be in constant communication or "constant prayer" with God.

Here's an example:

Learn How To Pray - Live Holy
December 16, 1988

My personal frustration has not been understanding, intellectually, the inner receiver, that was easy. That hard part has been my not being able to figure out how to turn on my inner BFO. Where's the "On" switch and how/where do I plug this thing in???

It's becoming more clear now, and okay, I say the following not to tweak people, but the only preacher I've encountered lately who gets the heart part is Osteen.

Yes, I know, I know...that guy, but if you actually follow his advice and not what other people said he said, it's pretty good practical tuning tips.

It's all about focus and his stuff, to me, is all about focusing on the good of God, taking everything as it comes, good and bad, as being from God, etc., etc.

He just doesn't focus on sin, which bothers many. His focus is higher, on what he wants more of, not on what he wants less of, in my ever so humble opinion.

I think that's the one reason he's so popular. And it truly works. Again, just my opinion, and only that of a hick in paradise.

And there’s something darker about this that people avoid like the plague. I certainly don’t know how to say it without getting banned forever plus a day. I can only write like I talk and I talk plainly. So, I understand the reluctance of others to even “go there” because I myself can’t figure out how to do it either.

In other words, there’s another trio that uses the same exact names but not in the way you think. That’s brutal. And that’s the problem. But there it is.

I get the feeling that a lot of people are trying desperately to point to it, but run up on the same problem I mentioned.

Satan could never get a soul if he were truthful and if he showed himself as he really is. He can only get souls by mangling the Word of God and by misrepresentation.

I wish I could express it better.

He takes what is true. The absolute truth of God. He uses the truth of God to gain souls. It’s the little bit of subtle twisting of Scripture that gives him a score.

What think you?

I lead with Proverbs 3:5 and say that I think I don't understand everything and that as I learn more, my understanding changes, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

My understanding is that the second one is covered all He said in that same paragraph and prior. He already covered it, so He moved on.

For what it's worth, the people that I thought would be most interested in this material were the very ones who seemingly are the most horrified by the idea of God speaking to us this way, in our time, in our own current language, to undo centuries of confusion.

Wow, did I get that wrong! That was one of the most surprising things to me, but I better understand why now, after reading so many posts here on the religious forum.

On the other hand, she, herself, had a lot of trouble with all of it, too, in the beginning, which was something that started to drive me crazy once it became fairly obvious (to me as a reader) what was happening.

I've had some doubts of my own along the way, and I still haven't finished reading it, but I have no personal reason to not accept it at face value and many reasons it's easy for me to accept it as is.

Thanks for the help and feedback!

I think I hear the music you're dancing around.

A cover tune is just not as good as when it's when played by the original artist, right?

I feel that, believe me, I do.

However, again, just my opinion, but personally I've been listening to this band for a few years now and have almost heard the entire album set.

My ear is not great, but it's getting better and I think I'm listening to the original band.

Not only that, when I play the same stuff on my guitar, the music sounds so much better than I am as a player that it makes even me sound good!

(That's a miracle according to anyone who knows me and has heard me play, lol.)

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