Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
Um, you might want to look at the beginning verses of Chapter 14, John’s Gospel. Unless you’re catholic of course.
The logic of Christ is that he NEVER, nor did his apostles, EVER refer to the ‘Son of God’ as ‘God the Son’.
Their descriptions of the Godhead are accurate. Anyone that uses the phrase ‘God the Son’ has accepted an inaccurate description.
Jesus Christ’s description of God in John 14 alone seals it.
Jesus Christ is fully man (the original body being divinely conceived, although now a glorified body), and given the Spirit without measure (meaning he does indeed have ALL power and authority).
The Son says the Father is in him doing the works. That explains it quite well, by the ONE who knows the Godhead BETTER than any other man.
See post 32. You guys can’t have it both ways.
The only protestants that follow the teachings of Luther are Lutherans. All others do what they feel like doing because 99.9% of them think they are their own authority on the Bible and they answer to no one. The “me and Jesus” crowd. “No one ain’t telling me about Jesus cause I know how to read”. The vast majority of those on FR fall in that category.
>> “According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), ... Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173”<<
And then we see that there is no such book. The title actually is, Textual Situations: Three Medieval Manuscripts and Their Readers. http://www.jstor.org/stable/27870498?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents So, first we see that the anti-Catholic is too stupid to get the title right. Then we see that there is an ellipse in the quote in Taylor’s book. Then we see that the anti-Catholic cuts out a key phrase that is the original author’s explanation for his belief. After all truth and accuracy don’t matter to the anti-Catholic. And I know that this is the case because I just looked at the page in question.
And yet, you didn't have the guts to post the quote! Why? Talk about "truth and accuracy" not mattering. That it doesn't matter to some catholics is plainly clear now.
And even with all of that, it has to be said, it doesn’t matter what Eadmer wrote. It was just his opinion. And almost no Catholic today has ever heard of him let alone been affected by his beliefs.
Straight from the liberal/Alinsky playbook.
A large majority of writings by catholics have not been read by catholics....that would include the CCC based on what I've witnessed on this board.
Most catholics have not heard of Montfront either....but he wrote what he wrote.
A lot of catholics couldn't tell you what some of the ECFs have written or even who they were. They still wrote what they wrote. That these authors have not been read or heard of is not the point. The point is they wrote what they wrote due to the roman catholic position on Mary.
Here is the complete quote:
"Her son is the Lord and Judge of all men, discerning the merits of the individuals, hence he does not an once answer anyone who invokes him, but does it only after just judgment. But if the name of his mother be invoked, her merits intercede so the he is answered even if the merits of him who invokes her does not deserve it." From Judgment to Passion: Devotion to Christ and the Virgin Mary 800-1200,p246, Rachel Fulton, Columbia University Press, 2002
Eadmer is also quoted in the same publication: "Sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name than if we invoke the name of the Lord Jesus." Fulton, p246.
These two quotes are put together in another text, "Masculinity and Marian Efficacy in Shakespeare's England", Dr Ruben Espinosa, p. 12,Ashgate Publishing Limited, Burlington, VT.
"Sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name than if we invoke the name of the Lord Jesus.....Her son is the Lord and Judge of all men, discerning the merits of the individuals, hence he does not an once answer anyone who invokes him, but does it only after just judgment. But if the name of his Mother be invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invokes her does not deserve it. (570a-b)", p12
So thanks, Vlad....we now have the full complete quote from three sources! Glad we cleared that up.
Was Mary in Heaven at that time? Nope. Thus, you have no point at all.
Really....this is the best you've got on this one??
So catholics are saying that Mary's "powers" came only after she went to Heaven?? If Mary was all catholics claim she is why no record of anyone on the NT coming to her for help? or salvation?
the catholic cannot answer why John did not even use Mary's name in John 2....only the mother of Jesus. Again, not the mother of God, but the mother of Jesus. John knew what he was writing.
Even good doctor Luke did not call her the mother of God.
But to be clear:
Do catholics pray to Mary? check.
Do catholics have statues of Mary? check.
Do catholics kneel before Mary? check.
And again, we won't bring up the proposed Fifth Marian dogma.
I’m well aware of that chapter. Please quote the exact verse where God, the Father, declared Jesus Christ to be God.
“All others do what they feel like doing because 99.9% of them think they are their own authority on the Bible and they answer to no one.”
Eh, I think perhaps you exaggerate my FRiend. The Christians I know believe God is the ultimate authority over their lives and they answer to Him.
“The “me and Jesus” crowd. “No one ain’t telling me about Jesus cause I know how to read”. The vast majority of those on FR fall in that category.”
Eh, when you insult people and their beliefs, I think you come across like a Catholic Basher.
Best.
“Since the Second Person of the Trinity is God, it is correct to say that Mary is the Mother of God.”
Nah. God never gave her that title FRiend. Yet you are quite insistent on giving it to her.
He blessed Mary by choosing her to bear Messiah. It is quite the blessing. No need to make her into more than He did.
Best.
Oh! You mean the fifth and final Marian dogma with Mary as “advocate, mediatrix, and co-redemptrix."
Oops.
That be the one!
Note the the Word notes the Holy Spirit is our Advocate......not Mary
“And yet, you didn’t have the guts to post the quote! Why?”
Boy, do you make things up when you’re cornered! Why do I have to post the quote? You posted an incomplete one. All that is incumbent upon me is to point out that fact. If you want the rest of the quote, then read the original! I did.
“Talk about “truth and accuracy” not mattering. That it doesn’t matter to some catholics is plainly clear now.”
I said nothing that was inaccurate or untruthful. You did. Remember, I pointed out you posted a quote that was incomplete - a fact you probably didn’t even know since you were apparently simply lifting it from another website (without attribution, of course). Everything I said was truthful and accurate. What you said was not.
“Straight from the liberal/Alinsky playbook.”
Really? So if I say “Luther believed in bigamy” and you respond with, “Luther’s opinion on marriage doesn’t really matter. He was merely speaking for himself” that’s a Liberal/Saul Alinsky play? Really? Man, you really seem desperate.
“Most catholics have not heard of Montfront either....but he wrote what he wrote.”
Ha! No, he didn’t. It’s Monfort, not Montfront. Oy vey! The usual inaccuracy of the anti-Catholic.
“Here is the complete quote:”
Actually we don’t know from Fulton’s book if that is complete. And why are you ditching Taylor for Fulton? Have you read either book or are you just posting from yet another anti-Catholic website?
“Her son is the Lord and Judge of all men, discerning the merits of the individuals, hence he does not an once answer anyone who invokes him, but does it only after just judgment. But if the name of his mother be invoked, her merits intercede so the he is answered even if the merits of him who invokes her does not deserve it.” From Judgment to Passion: Devotion to Christ and the Virgin Mary 800-1200,p246, Rachel Fulton, Columbia University Press, 2002”
Then you posted: “Eadmer is also quoted in the same publication: “Sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary’s name than if we invoke the name of the Lord Jesus.” Fulton, p246”
So you just put the quotes in the reverse order Taylor had them. Did you even notice?
And, again, none of what Eadmer says matters.
“Really....this is the best you’ve got on this one??”
Since my point completely overturned yours, nothing better culd possibly be needed. Heavenly saints are those saints in heaven. They would only be asked for intercession in heaven when in heaven.
“So catholics are saying that Mary’s “powers” came only after she went to Heaven??”
Who are these “catholics”?
“If Mary was all catholics claim she is why no record of anyone on the NT coming to her for help? or salvation?”
Again, who are these “catholics”? Was Mary in heaven at that point?
“So thanks, Vlad....we now have the full complete quote from three sources! Glad we cleared that up.”
Actually an ellipse (...) indicates it is not complete. You do realize that, right? And, again, it doesn’t matter what Eadmer thought.
“the catholic cannot answer why John did not even use Mary’s name in John 2....”
Again, who is this “catholic”? Also, if John didn’t use his own name, why would he use Mary’s? He never uses her name. He simply refers to her as Jesus’ mother. Have you not noticed that before?
“only the mother of Jesus. Again, not the mother of God, but the mother of Jesus. John knew what he was writing.”
So you’re denying that Jesus was God? John didn’t. Are you claiming John denied Mary’s Son was Jesus? John didn’t.
“Even good doctor Luke did not call her the mother of God.”
Sure he did: Luke 1:43. As I posted earlier: “Elisabeth confessed faith already in the person of Jesus, for she noted that Mary bore the God-man (mother of my Lord).” Footnote in The Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible for Luke 1:43.
“But to be clear: Do catholics pray to Mary? check. Do catholics have statues of Mary? check. Do catholics kneel before Mary? check. And again, we won’t bring up the proposed Fifth Marian dogma.”
And you’re still wrong: praying to Mary is not worship. Having statues is not worshiping Mary or statues of Mary. Kneeling in front of a statue is no more worshiping the statue or the person it represents than going down on one knee to ask a woman to marry you is to worship her.
But anti-Catholics don’t care about truth or accuracy.
“Your a nice fella but you’re making one mistake after another.”
Actually I didn’t make a single mistake.
“That’s a bad pattern.”
There can’t be a pattern without a series or errors and I made not a single one. Thus, no pattern.
“I am weary of your pattern of failure.”
You can’t be weary of what doesn’t exist.
From Matthew, ch 1:
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel”
From Hebrews, ch 1:
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”But about the Son he says,
In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,There's more, but this enough to make the point.
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Right you are!
You've made several. And they keep right on coming!
In fact, it's downright entertaining!
Have a nice evening!
Got anything besides circular reasoning?
Are you denying Jesus is ‘God with us’? Did you read what Jesus told Philip?
You think it’s impossible to be a Christian outside of scripture? Where’s it say that in Scripture, please?
Do you post under more than one name at FR?
You’ve never actually read Galatians, have you?
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