Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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Verga's post 160 and his subsequent posts are contradictory. I'm trying to get to the heart of which position he's advocating. Has God always existed or did He come into existence?
Verga himself has asked me more than once to answer his questions to which I have. He did not like my answers and said slinging scripture was insufficient. I've even gone into additional detail for both his questions and some of yours. On one of your questions I even broke down John 1:1 by the Greek to provide additional insight to the answer....but you had additional questions.
I've asked him to clarify his position, which so far, he has not.
Verga identifies as catholic. I've asked if his #160 post is the catholic position as it is such a radical departure from what Christians and catholics understand regarding God and his existence to which no reply has been given.
You've asked me, and others, questions others more than once to which I have answered. However, you haven't always liked the answers. That's fine with me. You've been asked questions to which you haven't replied to.
You've suggested boatbums higher education was wasted or that possibly he went to an institution that was completely lacking in your post 640.
I believe you've also asked a line of questions in more than one post that asks how can the Father and Son be co-eternal as children are not older than their parents.
Verga in his 632 post said "If it weren't for double standards, the non-Catholics wouldn't have any at all."
You've accused me of being in error on the Greek (post 569) to which I've asked for you to show me where I was in error.
I can go on with other examples of posts between all of us that some may or may not consider harassment. It's part of the give and take on the RF.
The religion forum is a free discussion site. As the RM has noted it is not the place for those with thin skins.
If people don't won't the debate, set up a caucus thread or don't post controversial posts.
Ping since I mentioned you
Is that the reason that you, a self-proclamed agnostic, have been on these threads? To try to get people banned?
And don't worry. I won't ask again.....
Excellent work, dan.
The whole passage there in Matthew also deals with disputes among believers. It is not in context of establishing a church government.
The only indication that God gives us about church governance is that there are elders and a pastor for the local congregation.
There’s no indication of one, allegedly unified, corporate body of believers to which one must profess allegiance in order to be saved.
Talk to the poster about not posting them any more then, if they are too controversial for you.
I like Msgr Pope's stuff. I don't agree with everything he states but mostly he's right on.
For the record, I don't know that I have met anyone with whom I agree 100% but since that's not a requirement for salvation, it falls into the disputable matters category (Romans 14).
Thank you for iterating the Truth/reality. Perhaps coming from someone other than the ones the poster wants to have banned it will sink in.
Discuss the issues, stop making the thread about individual posters.
The “to” field includes “all” so this admonition applies to all posters.
It is the practice of the Religion Moderator to not join in debates, so address your opinions to other posters, not the RM.
Again, everyone stick with the issues pertaining to religion and stop complaining about other posters, calling for their banning, etc.
I will review this thread as soon as possible and some posts may be removed.
Thanks for saying what I was thinking. No “church” is perfect and with the leader they have today, it shows it is not perfect. Do you know where that is in the Bible because I do not remember it? Thanks.
I never saw it anywhere.
It certainly wasn’t in the book of Acts. There was considerable debate there, the Council at Jerusalem shows that.
Paul went his way after sharp debate with Barnabas over John Mark.
The NT is replete with warnings about watching out for error creeping into the church and the seven churches in Revelation that Jesus addressed show that no church is above error. Matter of fact, the epistles were written to correct error. Galatians and Corinthians especially come to mind.
Yeah...I think it's called "The Beast". ;o)
When people advance a post that is counter to Christianity there's a good chance someone may comment on it.
If you don't like the conversation don't participate. This is FR after all and not some liberal site where free speech is shuttered.
If you think these posts are upsetting you must not have seen the Trump/Cruz discussions. Those were brutal.
Where've ya been? What is "sad" about this thread? If you had bothered to read through it you would see AGREEMENT with the OP about the Trinity and the Deity of Jesus Christ. What has been disagreed with are those who imagine God had a beginning and/or that Jesus is not co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Why wait nearly 700 posts later to join the discussion?
You're only crying wolf this time. Careful...we know what happens in that story.
I'll betcha verga is tough enough to take harassment.
After all; he can dish it out pretty well; Right Mom?
Mighty bold and assertive statement for a meta; what was it... agnostic?
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