Martin Luther was a ‘teacher of the faith’, say [Catholic] German bishops

Catholic Herald ^ | August 12, 2016 | Jonathan Luxmoore

[ealgeone]

Ah yes...another version of the catholic dodge. I've noted when the contradictory claims of roman catholicsm are noted and even compared to the New Testament and found wanting the catholic likes to change the subject.

>>From Acts 2:38 we also have this....."Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."<<

So when was the last time you have repented of your sins and been given absolution?

I appeal to Christ on a regular basis. Though at the time I placed my trust in Him my sins were rubbed out as noted in Colossians 2:13-14

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The astute reader will note Paul does not mention the wearing of the scapular to keep them out of Hell as claimed by the apparition roman catholicism claims to be Mary. There is no appeal to Mary for the forgiveness of sins in any of the New Testament. It is only through Christ and Christ alone in which we have forgiveness and eternal life. The catholic cannot say that as there are far too many catholic writers who have appealed to Mary for their protection and salvation.

Your testimony regarding the scapular is a prime example.

[23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. John Chapter 20.

Or are you another cherry-picker?

And how did Peter do this? He preached the Word.

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, Acts 3:19-20

[ebb tide]

I notice that you reject, or at least ignore John 20:23.

[ebb tide]

I have more faith and hope in wearing a brown scapular and staying in a state of grace by going to Confession as instructed in John 20:23 than “sinning, and sinning bolding”.

It’s easy to see how Luther’s revolt was so quickly accepted by weak and/or uneducated Catholics. Kind of like Mohammed’s religion. It’s so easy and so physically pleasing to the flesh.

[ealgeone]

I have more faith and hope in wearing a brown scapular and staying in a state of grace by going to Confession as instructed in John 20:23 than “sinning, and sinning bolding”

I'm telling you....that brown scapular is a sign of no faith in the promises made by Christ. Talk about sinning boldly.

Anyone who does this is rejecting the Savior's promises and placing their hope in a piece of fabric.

Think about what you're saying.

Again, I'll ask you for a passage in the New Testament that tells us we are to place our trust in the scapular and the false promises of the apparition at Fatima.

John 5:24:

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Regarding John 20:23. I explained how Peter....and the other disciples and then other believers did this and continue to do this. The Gospel is shared with non-believers. I gave you the quote from Acts 3.

The only way sins can be forgiven is through Christ as noted in the passage I posted from Colossians. We believe His promises and He wipes away our sins. The Greek behind Colossians 2:13-14 is pretty amazing.

[ebb tide]

Do you doubt the Shroud of Turin also? That’s a fabric.

How about the veil of Veronica?

P.S. I don’t care what you believe in.

[ealgeone]

Do you doubt the Shroud of Turin also? That’s a fabric.

How about the veil of Veronica?

P.S. I don’t care what you believe in.

I'll tell you this....I don't place my eternal life in the wearing of a piece of cloth.

I'm trusting the promises of Christ and Christ only as He noted in John 5:24.....do you?

[ebb tide]

Again, I'll ask you for a passage in the New Testament that tells us we are to place our trust in the scapular and the false promises of the apparition at Fatima.

Again, I'll ask you when you confessed your sins and had them either forgiven or retained by one of Christ's ministers?

I have no problem in believing things outside the Bible and I know that's a problem for you. But I find it ironic that you cherry-pick the very "bible" you swear by.

[ebb tide]

I'll tell you this....I don't place my eternal life in the wearing of a piece of cloth.

That is not an answer to the questions I posed. Dodging again I see.

[ealgeone]

I’ve answered your questions twice. Perhaps you should re-read the thread.

[ebb tide]

Do you doubt the Shroud of Turin also? That’s a fabric.

How about the veil of Veronica?

You never answered the above questions. You dodged them.

[boatbums]

The bishops’ report said the “Catholic Church may recognise today what was important in the Reformation – namely, that Sacred Scripture is the centre and standard for all Christian life.

“Connected with this is Martin Luther’s fundamental insight that God’s self-revelation in Jesus Christ for the salvation of the people is proclaimed in the Gospel – that Jesus Christ is the centre of Scripture and the only mediator.”

I'd say that would be a really good start. I don't understand why some Catholics think Christianity "belongs" to them and that no one outside of the Catholic church can be saved or is somehow missing the truth of Christianity. One would think we could rejoice together over every soul that comes to faith in Jesus Christ. It's not like we're atheists!

[boatbums]

Amen!

[boatbums]

That Father Kramer has a screw loose.

[Arthur McGowan]

One of Bergoglio’s worst acts is coming, when he celebrates Luther, the greatest heretic/schismatic in history, alongside a lesbian “bishop” and her “wife.”

[Arthur McGowan]

The episcopate around the world harbors apostates. Bergoglio is industriously searching out more apostate priests, and making them bishops.

In this, he is outperforming JPII, who merely rubber-stamped the stinkers whose dossiers were put on his desk.

Benedict made an effort to find worthy priests.

In their overt apostasy and corruption, the German bishops are merely a bit ahead of the pack.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

I went to Catholic high school in the 1960’s. My sophomore year World History teacher, a monk, was very sympathetic towards Martin Luther. Basically said that Luther was right and the Pope was wrong on matters of faith and doctrine.

[daniel1212]

Understanding that you’re just trying to get under people’s skin, care to explain how Luther could have “recovered” something that wasn’t lost in the first place?

Salvation by grace thru faith, that of true effectual faith being counted for righteousness, justifying the unGodly (who thus characteristically live Godly) , was never totally lost, but which is contrary to salvation by grave as meaning that by the grace of God man attains the practical perfection of character needed to enter Heaven, usually thru Purgatory.

And certainly the moral condition of Catholicism called for reformation:

Referring to the schism of the 14th and 15th centuries, Cardinal Ratzinger observed,

"For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.

"It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for the Church of Rome, “Principles of Catholic Theology,” trans. by Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, S.N.D. (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1989) p.196), emp. mine; http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2012/06/13/whos-in-charge-here-the-illusions-of-church-infallibility/)

Catholic historian Paul Johnson additionally described the existing social situation among the clergy during this period leading up to the Refomation: 

“Probably as many as half the men in orders had ‘wives’ and families. Behind all the New Learning and the theological debates, clerical celibacy was, in its own way, the biggest single issue at the Reformation. It was a great social problem and, other factors being equal, it tended to tip the balance in favour of reform. As a rule, the only hope for a child of a priest was to go into the Church himself, thus unwillingly or with no great enthusiasm, taking vows which he might subsequently regret: the evil tended to perpetuate itself.” (History of Christianity, pgs 269-270)

[daniel1212]

AAAH the cafeteria protestants....giddy over luther on this subject, but very quiet on his words on mary as ever virgin, and the eucharist as the literal body and blood of christ, etc.....

"The eucharist as the literal body and blood of Christ," meaning that what you consume is literally, actually the body that a literal reading of "This is my body which is given for you," (Luke 22:19) would mean, or that it "really" is a body which does not look like, and would not taste and scientifically test as real flesh, which the body that was given (crucified and risen) that He referred to would?

And just where in the life of the NT church in Scripture, which teachings are interpretive of the gospels, do you see this solemn, central ritual officiated by sacerdotal priests turning bread and wine into a sacrifice for sins, to be consumed in order to obtain essential spiritual life?

only the metaphorical understanding easily conflates with the totality of Scripture, as shown here by the grace of God.

[daniel1212]

Oh, really? So now you’re extrapolating your “faith” to that which scripture doesn’t say? How convenient. Luther did that also.

So you object to "That Christ's Assembly is built on the rock of confession of faith," as reading into Scripture?

Or are you arguing "that Peter founded a church" is what Scripture teaches?

Or that "Peter ever served as the Bishop of Rome?"

Or that "what became the Roman Catholic Church was the Assembly Christ founded on confession of faith?"

Or do you deny that "Without a confession of faith - entrusting yourself to Christ alone, apart from any claim to your own righteousness - you will die in your sins and be separated from God from all eternity?"

[Elsie]

Martin Luther was a ‘teacher of the faith’, say [Catholic] German bishops

Evidently; Catholic bishops can be ignored at will:

As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:

 

 

 • Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

• Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.