How Do We Know It’s the True Church?

Catholic Answers ^ | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

[ADSUM]

What are the twelve traits of authority, and how do they work?

First of all, it seems clear that their decision would have to be made from a historical perspective. It was not good enough to decide complex moral, social, or doctrinal issues based on popularity polls or yesterday’s newspaper. To decide difficult questions, a valid authority has to be historical.

[Salvation]

Trump is better than Hillary any day. Have a good day, dinmocrat voter.

[AC Beach Patrol]

His attacks on Trump have been #NeverTrump-esque. Search his Patheos blog if you can stomach this pseudo-intellectual Anglophile Bob Jones University graduate who fancies himself as some Hilaire Belloc. He should be blogging at Pathetic.

Longenecker: "...a braying windbag like Donald Trump..."

[Hilda]

Jesus condemned tradition

He condemned the traditions of the Pharisees, not the tradition of the Church He founded.

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." - 2 Thess 2:15

[Hilda]

First of all, God’s Word is in the Bible, not the ‘Church’

But the Bible itself says that the Church is the "pillar and foundation of the truth."

Christ is the Word of God.

The Church is the body of Christ.

[Popman]

1Co 3:10 to 16
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Church Tradition is wood, hay and stubble...

[LukeL]

If the traditions were started by Peter or Paul there is no problem. However if some ecuemenical council came up with it hundreds of years after scripture ceased to be written you can bet it was created by man and not inspired. If John had to scope the majority of the seven Churches he wrote to in 90AD a mere 60 years after the death of Christ you can bet how many umbilical things have crept into churches 2000 years later.

[piusv]

Bzzt. Wrong answer.

There were in fact changes in religious freedom and ecumenism.

[ebb tide]

Nonsense...the changes made by Vatican II were in rubrics,ceremonies, church layouts....

VC II did not call for different church layouts. It did not call for the protestant supper table. It did not call for the removal of altar rails . It did not call for removal of traditional confessionals in lieu of silly "reconciliation" rooms nor did it require the tabernacle to be moved to a a corner.

In addition, lay readers, altar chicks, eucharistic monsters, Holy Communion in the paw while on the hoof were never brought up. But I understand why you think these rubrics/ceremonies to be "minor".

[avenir]

Recently I was reading the CCC on capital punishment—a Scriptural no-brainer if ever there was one—and it twisted itself into a knot in shrinking awaay from that sobering duty of law. No one can sell me that Catholics of old had even a thought of rescinding that due punishment (or stipulated that there be no other way to stop a qualified recipient from perpetrating future harm).

So who tampered with the CCC? And what other sections were compromised?

[JerryBlackwell]

Roman Catholic church has not been true since 1965 or so..

[ebb tide]

Here's one of the "fruits" of VC II and religious freedom:

Sharia Law In America

[boatbums]

Evangelical Protestants say the Bible decides, but this begs the question when the two warring parties agree that the Bible is the final authority. They eventually split because they can’t agree about what the Bible actually teaches. I had moved away from the Protestant understanding that Scripture is the only authority, and as an Anglican, believed that authority rested in Scripture, tradition, and reason.

It would be wonderful if Catholic apologists stopped propping up straw men of false statements about those they oppose so they can knock them down and claim victory. FR Catholics bitterly complain about "Catholic-bashing" threads but celebrate those that bash Evangelical Protestants. Why is that?

There IS no question begging WRT the Holy Scriptures because they ARE Divinely-inspired and no other inventions of men can claim the same. Whatever "warring parties" argue over, it remains true that Scripture alone is THE authority. The Apostle Paul said he did not fail to deliver the "whole counsel of God". We can trust that the doctrines we must believe are provided to us in the Holy Spirit revealed writings. Truth doesn't change.

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. (The Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 1.6)

This does NOT discount the place of pastors and teachers that God has given to the local churches so that through Scripture they can be edified, corrected, taught doctrine, reproved and instructed in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. These leaders are to be in submission to the word of God. Whenever there were doctrinal disagreements in the past, they were settled by Scripture.

It is disingenuous for the author to present the Roman Catholic church as the "true" Church based on some imagined ancient authority seeing as there have been numerous splits and schisms, disagreements and wars long before the Reformation happened. Even a cursory read of the "early church fathers" shows that they often warred and fought over doctrine. Several fell into heresy and were later declared heretics yet you will still find their names listed as "saints" of the church. The Holy Spirit is who leads us to all the truth. Job's friend Elihu said it well:

I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. (Job 32:7-9)

[bike800]

But a valid question that needs to be answered. Even Luther was dismayed at the rampant, wild interepretations that occurred because of his teachings ... You can’t say that “only the Bible is true, and everything needed for salvation is found in scripture alone, when the bible itself doesn’t ever say that. Once that is acknowledged ... Then the question of the marks of the true church can be sought

[HomerBohn]

Minor?

In some churches you can’t find the tabernacle. It’s often shunted off to a side room. The priest is referred to as ‘the president of the assembly’. The words of consubstantiation are changed from ‘the many’ to ‘all’. Many of today’s priests don’t believe in consubstantiation. What is passing for the Catholic Church today is an entirely new religion that has nothing to do with The Holy Trinity and everything to do with secular humanism and heresy. This Argentinian Bergolgio is proof that the Roman Catholic Church as we knew it, as did our forefathers, is gone.

Radically changing tenets and rubrics of Christ’s Church on Earth was a sin that cries to Heaven for vengeance”!

the post-Vatican II “Catholic” Church is not the real Catholic Church. It’s the Counter Church of the last days. It purports to be Catholic, but it is not. It’s been presided over by antipopes and heretics.

[piusv]

The new JPII CCC and 1983 Code of Canon Law were tampered with to include the non-Catholic teachings of Vatican II (although capital punishment was not a topic at Vatican II).

[avenir]

Thank you for info.

[Fantasywriter]

Who purchased the people who make up the assembly/gathering? When you take money to the store, who decides what you buy: you, or the items on the shelf? Jesus bought the people who make up the assembly at the price of His own blood. Shouldn’t He have the first and last word on who He bought?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“You can’t say that “only the Bible is true, and everything needed for salvation is found in scripture alone, when the bible itself doesn’t Say that.”

Only the Scriptures are inspired by God and hold the final authority for this reason.

Everything necessary for eternal life is found in Scripture.

Everything necessary for maturity of a believer is found in Scripture.

[Mr Rogers]

Jesus may have sometimes said something like, “It is written...”.

But mostly he would say, “At a Council in 600 BC, 63% of attending clerics voted for “B” and we’ve accepted “B” ever since...”

[Bigg Red]

Thank you for that link. He’s off my list, too, now.