Posted on 11/20/2016 10:43:00 AM PST by NRx
Among the greater mysteries of the New Testament are those surrounding the Mother of God. A large segment of modern Christianity has become tone deaf in this regard, a result of centuries of antagonism towards certain aspects of older tradition. It is a deafness that grieves my heart, primarily in that it represents a great gulf within the broader experience of the faith. A few years after my reception into the Orthodox Church, a friend from my Anglican past asked me if I ever thought of returning. He had no idea of how foreign the thought was to me. But within my mind, the first thought was the absence of Mary. I think I said something to the effect that I could never consider leaving “my mother.”
I’m not sure what those who are strangers to Mary imagine goes on in the life of an Orthodox or Catholic Christian. I cannot speak for Catholics (they’re more than capable of speaking for themselves). First, I know that there is nothing even remotely like worship accorded to her. The entire experience of veneration seems to have been lost within Protestant thinking. I often use examples of patriotic feeling, or some such inadequate experience, to suggest analogies. But, in truth, it is an experience that has no parallel.
For one, I have no conception of Mary apart from Christ. She is not someone-in-herself to be considered alone. The traditional title affirmed by the 3rd Ecumenical Council is “Theotokos,” the “Birthgiver of God.” In the same manner, we say of Christ, “born of the Virgin Mary.” Christ is the God become man, and His humanity is utterly and completely derivative of Mary. He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh. It is the nature of our humanity that if we speak of His Body and Blood, we cannot do so in a manner that excludes her from that reality.
But saying this can easily be lost in words of doctrine. Doctrine is always a discussion of reality, and it is the reality we want rather than the words. The Body and Blood of Christ are not an abstraction. They are a sweet warmth within the experience of the believer. How would I describe to the non-Christian the experience of communion? There are no words that I would ever exchange for that singular taste.
The oldest known devotion to Mary can be found in the words of a hymn that is documented to have existed and been sung before the middle of the 3rd century. It remains a very important hymn within Orthodoxy to this day:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Theotokos:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble;
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Anyone who might suggest that this hymn represents some pagan-importation is simply historically ignorant. The 3rd century is the great century of martyrs when the Church was in constant conflict with the official paganism of the Empire. There is no historical legitimacy for a claim of a paganizing of the faith during this period. Honoring Mary, including asking her intercessions, was perfectly at home within the mind of the primitive Church.
But what heart first uttered this cry to the compassion of the Theotokos? How did the Church learn of such a thing? That compassion is well described, for it was prophesied in Scripture.
At the time of Christ’s presentation in the Temple (at 40 days of age), Mary is warned about his coming role in Israel, and told that “a sword will pierce your own soul also” (Lk 2:34-35). This is more than maternal grief. Her union with Christ, expressed in the words of her innocent humility, rendered her uniquely vulnerable at the Cross. Christ is wounded for our transgressions, but she is wounded as well. The Church’s instinct and experience says that she is vulnerable to the sufferings of all.
The word translated “compassion” (εὐσπλαγχνία) is itself worth noting. It seems to be a Greek effort to translate a Hebrew word (רַחֲמִים rachamim) and indicates a deep pain identified with the womb. It is the very deep heart of maternal suffering.
The fear of this experience and knowledge, I suspect, is driven by the centuries-old accusation of “Mary-worship,” as well as an idea that anything or anyone given honor other than God represents competition for God, and denigrates His glory. People might argue with the form that honor has taken over the centuries (icons, candles, hymns, prayers, etc.), but at no time has there ever been any intention of offering worship. Indeed, that would be condemned as the worst of heresies.
But we have forgotten the ancient Christian ethos of honor and veneration. The Scriptures nowhere describe God as “alone.” Instead, He is consistently depicted as the Lord of “Hosts” (a vast crowd). The God made known in Christ is a relational God who is Himself described as “love.” The honor and veneration given to the saints within the Church is simply the liturgical expression of love. It is not worship. Generations of Christians, however, have become estranged from the court of Christ, and fancied the Kingdom either as a democracy, or the King without His entourage. They have forgotten the place of the King’s mother and the honor due His friends. In short, we have become rude in our spiritual bearing and made ourselves strangers to heaven.
God is a generous God, quick to forgive. He has not allowed us to destroy the ethos or the witness of the Apostles’ successors. The reality of His heaven abides. We can regain was has been lost, beginning, perhaps, with careful consideration of the doctrine and practice involved (free of passions and mischaracterizations). But only time and usage heal what is essentially a relational matter.
Perhaps reciting the words of that ancient hymn that has found its place on the lips of saints through the ages would be a good place to begin.
We need all the friends we can find!
Written in honor of the Feast of the Entrance of the Mother of God into the Temple, November 21
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Jesus:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble;
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
There, fixed it!!!
Are you saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are institutionally anti-Semitic, or are you saying something else? Let's not be coy.
I have posted this before and NEVER received an answer:
Why would you pray to Mary, or the Saints when the Father invites you into a direct intimate relation ship with Him?
Why must it be either/or? Do you think that Catholic and Orthodox do not also pray to God? Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? If so, why did you do so and not just pray directly to God?
A love of Mary and the saints is no contradiction of a direct intimate relationship with God the Father. Indeed, we should love those whom He loves.
As a Christian, I do not find anything mysterious about Mary. She was a beautiful, young girl with a heart after GOD. The fact that she had enough faith to believe GOD could produce a child within her .. is not mysterious.
There were plausible reasons for such an act. It had to be proven that she had never engaged in sexual activity. Nothing mysterious about that.
After Jesus was born, Mary did the normal mother things.
What I always enjoyed about the story of Mary was when she was in the Upper Room with the rest of the disciples, AND THEY ALL RECEIVED THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Soooo, that would mean that Mary was Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES.
That is so exciting to me .. to know that Mary got to experience that special event after Jesus’ death. At that moment, she must have felt really blessed.
The entire experience of veneration seems to have been lost within Protestant thinking.
Joh 8:39 “Our father is Abraham!” they declared. “No,” Jesus replied, “for if you were really the children of Abraham, you would follow his example.
The Jews venerated Abraham, so much that they said he was their father. When rebuked for this by Jesus they then said the God was their father, Jesus rebukes them again and identifies their real father if you want to read the rest of the story.
Joh_6:31 After all, our ancestors ate manna while they journeyed through the wilderness! The Scriptures say, ‘Moses gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
Joh_6:32 Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, Moses didn’t give you bread from heaven. My Father did. And now He offers you the true bread from heaven.
Moses was so venerated that tradition morphed the story to the point that it was Moses that gave them manna, and not God.
Do you see the problem of not having a direct intimate relationship with God?
Why would you pray to Mary, or the Saints when the Father invites you into a direct intimate relation ship with Him?
That it is false can be easily proven by listing a few of the bazillion things which are not made explicit in Scripture:
It is un-Biblical to assume that Scripture alone can resolve religious questions, because the Bible itself refers to sources of Apostolic truth beyond what is in the written text. For instance, the Apostles' example:
Philippians 3:17
Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.
Or here,
2 Thessalonians 2:15Or here, where Jesus says the Church itself has the authority to make rulings:
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.2 Thessalonians 3:6
We instruct you, brothers, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen even to the Church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.1 Timothy 3:15
The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
OK?
But let's look to God's Word in the Old Testament for many an example of holy veneration of human persons, which is not the same as adoration due to God alone. This is something that wonderfully permeates Old Testament culture.
So, veneration? Totally Biblical.
Yet that account has nothing to do with how one comes to know Christ.
There is nothing in the NT that says we have to go through Mary to get to Christ. Nothing.
However, this is not supported by the New Testament.
Apart from Him, she can do nothing. But whatever she asks of Him, He will not deny.
However, this is not supported by the New Testament.
As also can be said of Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
However, this is not supported by the New Testament.
My thoughts exactly.
So, then are you saying that I can venerate Mary without praying to her and/or considering her in some way an integral part of the redemption process, and you will honor that position as one of those that is not settled by Scripture?
John makes it clear we can come before the Throne and speak directly to Him.
There is no mention of Mary at all. None. And this is important to note as John was charged with the care of Mary.
14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. 1 John 5:14-15 NASB
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9 NASB
When people will not recognize Mary as the Mother of God they are actually dissing Jesus Christ.
Go figure!
2) I do not get down on my knees and pray to my friends to intercede with Jesus or the Father for me. You praying to the saints and asking friends is NOT EQUIVILANT. You have been taught that answer by others, but do some thinking about it on your own .........................
Why not ask them to pray for us. That’s what Catholics do.
No one has claimed everything we do daily or every action we do daily is in the Bible.
Does the Bible say it's ok to own a car?
See how ridiculous the argument is?
However, in matters on how one can come to faith in Christ and what that means the Bible addresses that.
How we conduct ourselves before God and others is covered.
To your assertion...It is un-Biblical to assume that Scripture alone can resolve religious questions...
14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:14-17 NASB
Yet in the NT Mary is never referred to in this manner.
Go figure.
Other aspects of the veneration of Mary are solidly established by Sacred Tradition and by the Church herself --- which Jesus says has the authority, given by Him, to bind and to loose on earth and in heaven (Matthew 16:19).
A good Bible Christian is obliged to recognize the authority of Sacred Tradition and the Church herself. Why? Because this is verified by Scripture.
So the Marian veneration you referred to, is not an optional extra. It is a God-established part of the the Church via Tradition and the teaching of the Church herself.
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