Posted on 12/03/2016 9:15:33 AM PST by marshmallow
Once again it is miracle mongering as relics are money makers and miss the entire point of Christ's incarnation, death and RESURRECTION. Christ is the ONLY way to salvation not some piece of wood.
I don't disagree that Christ is the only way to salvation. But your strawman argument based on faith has nothing to do with evidentiary or historical scholarship, Paulus, and has no place in such a discussion. No one is suggesting studying the Shroud or having relics or a piece of the "True Cross," are in some way a path to Salvation. No one is even remotely saying that, Paulus. None of this has anything to do with the historical relevance of the existence or the actual historical reality of these relics. They may or may not be the real thing and proving they are or are not is of historical and archaeological interest for many of us, and also for some who actually deny the existence of Jesus, it could go a long way in starting them on the road to belief and then faith. Your refusal to accept that stands in the way of that research and scholarship that may help them reach that result. It is not a challenge to your faith to examine these relics for their factual history and it is determined they are indeed fakes, nor is it a challenge to your faith if they are proven to have been actually the relics of Jesus Christ's execution and resurrection.
There were several such attempts at inventorying the pieces of the "True Cross" which was originally supposedly found by Roman Empress Flavia Iulia Helena Augusta, the mother of Roman Emperor Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus, in English called Emperor Constantine. However, these discoveries of the relics of the crucifixion occurred approximately 300 years after the event. Any chain of evidence was broken during that hiatus. The oral and written tradition which was reported in the histories written after the discovery by St. Helena, may be apocryphal, but the earliest was written in A.D. 350, and it is known that the claim was made then that she found the "True Cross" where it had been hidden by the earliest followers of Jesus Christ where it had been hidden away because it, and other things were secreted away because they had His blood on them. These included the 3 Nails, the Crown of Thorns, the Lance, the Titulus, and the Cross. She also uncovered the Tomb, which had had a Roman Temple to Venus built over it. She had that temple razed and had the first version of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher erected.
Some of the early writers of Helena's history claim those relics were secreted in the tomb itself, which would comport with Jewish tradition that anything which contained the blood of someone who died violently had to be buried with the deceased as the Jews believed that "Life was in the blood."
St. Helena left a piece of the Cross, whether or not it was the "True Cross" or not, in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher she built, the rest was sent back to Constantinople where her son the Emperor Constantine had established his new Capitol. There it was broken even further into pieces for political and religious purposes. People in that day and age did not put value on the completeness of archaeological treasures that we do in our day. . . and instead the aura and spiritual and political value far outweighed any value the item had in scholarly completeness for study. In fact such a concept would never even cross their minds. For example, it was reported that the "nails" were incorporated in the Emperors helmet and also in his horse's bridle, likely for the protection they might give in battle, or at least for the inspiration they would provide to his soldiers who would see him with them and know their provenance, and think him blessed by God!
It says nothing in scripture about gathering the "True Cross."
Not every word even spoken by Jesus was reported in the Gospels or written down in scripture. Scripture does not record every detail of the burial, or the exact details of the crucifixion, such as the names of the soldiers involved. It is NOT an exact history chronicle, nor does it contain a newspaper report on the events surrounding the execution of an itinerant preacher named Jeshua Bar Josef, alias The Christ. If it had, it might have included a few more details such as what you are demanding. Sorry. they had nothing even approaching such a thing as a newspaper in those times. . . or accurate history books. (Do we even today?)
The most comprehensive inventory of the pieces of the cross was done around 1870 by Charles Rohault de Fleury, a retired French architect who had won many awards for his designs and become a religious scholar and author, made a serious effort to catalog the actual known pieces of the "True Shroud" held both in churches and in private hands around the world. Where possible, he did an actual visit and measured the piece, cataloged a description, attempted to determine what kind of wood it appeared to be, and which direction the grain ran. Where he could not visit, he requested someone else to do the examination and measurements or estimates of the relics.
In any case, de Fleury's catalog is a comprehensive accounting of the extant pieces of the "True Cross" at that time. Using a reasonable estimate of the size of the crosses that were used in Roman times for typical crucifixions with a stipes of between three and four meters (9.8 feet and 13.1 feet) tall, with a patibulum of approximately two meters (6.6 feet) long. The averaged cross with reasonable wood dimensions for the Roman period, resulted in calculations that came up with him finding the original volume of the cross to be 0.178 cubic meters (6.286 cubic feet). The catalog measurements of the relics of remaining pieces totaled only ~0.004 Cubic Meters or more specifically 3,942,000 cubic millimetres (0.141 cubic feet).
Some larger pieces held by the Vatican and two others held in the Philippines have been added to that de Fleury catalog. These additions have brought the catalog up to total about ⅔rds of the amount necessary to make up the, two meter (~6' 6") patibulum, the cross piece. That systematic study's inventory, plus additions, is a far cry from John Calvin's 16th Century exaggerated and satiric "ship load" claim, but then Calvin never did any systematic survey of any kind, instead making his absurd critical assumptions from word of mouth and rumor.
As for where these pieces are today, they are essentially still in the same places where they were kept in 1870.
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Interesting.
yes, but it later turned out they took a part of the cloth that had been added to make a repair... pretty much the stupidest place they could have taken a piece from.
My God is an awesome God.
Does anyone know if the sign of the serpent is in the heavens at all, yet detected?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.