Posted on 04/24/2017 6:45:59 PM PDT by NRx
Good enough.
The question wasn't about what "the author" identified as "salvation of merit".
Is it that they do not use that precise terminology? Or is it the concept that terminology does seem in context to be describing?
Otherwise, I'd love to take your word for it, for regarding those whom I have encountered here in the States (and with whom I've discussed such matters) some of those did seem to me to place faith foremost in Jesus Christ ---rather than how He is approached through religious ceremony. Not that He cannot be met with in that way (during course of partaking in participating in "religious ceremony", and church services) but that relationship with Him is not fully dependent upon that. Does that make sense to you?
I just read that “apology”. Ignoring the specific points, let me just say that, generally speaking, the single word that would best describe it is, whether I agree with the points or not, “juvenile”.
He who hears not the Church...
He certainly doesn’t speak for me. In fact, I’ve never even heard of him.
He certainly doesn’t speak for me. In fact, I’ve never even heard of him.
AMEN!
The time for Christians to fight each other has to end as well.
No theologian here, but I'd argue that all we are doing now is making explicit a teaching that was implicitly present in the recognition that a heretical Baptism is still valid.
Is an Episcopalian infant baptized into the Catholic Church? If so, then sanctifying grace was poured into his soul, original sin is washed away, and the child will go to heaven provided, of course, that he does not sin mortally by heresy or some other means.
Hahaha. In the esteemed words of John McClain from the first Die Hard movie, I say to all my Orthodox brethren “welcome to the party pal”!
Enjoy! And just remember, all the non-Catholic/Protestant Christians telling you you’re hellbound are just doing it because they love you. It’s a sacrifice for them truly, it pains them to say it. They certainly derive no pleasure in doing so.
Heaven forbid.
Best post is the 3rd post.
Your difficulty is that you perceive that Catholicism is a denomination like any other. It is not.
It is the Church that Christ Himself founded, entrusted to the Apostles, who then entrusted it to the Apostolic Fathers, the Church Fathers, and down through the ages to today.
And that claim is provable. Because Lutherans did not exist before Luther, Calvinists did not exist before Calvin. But Catholics were present from the beginning.
Perhaps you misunderstood? I was talking about us Catholics whining about how put upon we are.
“Before Vatican II there was never any mention of “imperfect communion” or “full communion” with the Orthodox church or any of the Protestant churches. That’s because it wasn’t Catholic teaching.”
That’s not true. You can look up old books and see that both phrases were used in English in theological discussions. Take, for instance, the following:
“I.S.F. Buckingham, Esq., author of “Memoirs of Mary, Queen of Scots,” and Mr. Newman, were received into full communion with the Roman Catholic church last week at Oscott, having previously occupied an ambiguous position not clearly ascertained.” (Bengal Catholic Herald, Vol. XI, page 330 - Year 1845).
The very fact you have a Catholic publication referring to “full communion” would imply that there is a lesser possibility or position (i.e. an imperfect communion). Also, these ideas certainly have always come up in canon law for baptized persons outside of the Church have more standing than those who are not baptized at all. That can only be because they have an imperfect communion rather than no communion at all. This is discusses on page 146 (c. 96) of New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, by John P. Beal.
Even if it were true that no Catholic council used the expressions “full communion” and “imperfect communion” before 1965, it seems clear to me that it reflects an obvious necessity of understanding, of fact. How else are you going to regard a baptized person, possibly receiving other sacraments, except as in “imperfect communion”?
Exactly.
I must confess that I don’t know what that means. If you replace “church” with “the word”, “Jesus” or “God”, I get it. But as you posted it I don’t get the meaning.
I'm paraphrasing Matthew 18:17:
"And if he refuse to hear them, appeal to the Church, but if he refuse to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican."
Thanks. Context is everything. :)
When I said "make an example out of you" I was doing so in a positive sense, jokingly referring to doing things properly -- discussing issues, as it were, rather than making things about freepers here.
When discussing individual persons who are in the process of converting to the Catholic Faith that is true (which is what you quoted). However, the Catholic Church has never taught that non-Catholic churches in and of themselves were in partial communion or any part of “the Church” (which is what I was referring to).
Ah ok. Sorry I misunderstood. :)
Here you present it rhetorically, and that presentation shot full of unspoken assumptions.
I've examined the argument (and the various claims) and found more holes in the argument (particularly when exclusivity is included, along with infallibility of so-called Magesterium, those two logically enough needing both exist, and be complimentary, or else everything comes rather unwound) ---than solid support, and have otherwise also enjoyed having the Lord introduce Himself to little 'ol me in very powerful, unmistakable ways. Unmistakable, for my own self, others need not necessarily have the exact experiences with Him as have I...
Oh, well when you are talking about the heretical communities themselves then, yeah, there you have a point. There’s no doubt that these communities have points in common with the Church, but it’s quite telling that the Catechism refuses to extend to them the name “churches”.
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