Pope Francis meets with Rev. Jens-Martin Kruse at Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church on Nov. 15 2016
Posted on 06/23/2017 9:12:09 AM PDT by ebb tide
Pope Francis meets with Rev. Jens-Martin Kruse at Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church on Nov. 15 2016
The commission consists of representatives from all three denominations, all bound to secrecy.
The journalist, who is well known in Italy for his accurate reporting of all things happening in the Vatican, has said that while this news is merely a “rumor” at this point, his “sources are usually good.”
According to his sources, the commission is finding little difficulty in finding common ground in the “liturgy of the word”. Tosatti reports: “After the confession of sins, asking for forgiveness, and reciting the Gloria, there would be the readings and the Gospel.”
He also said that the commission is allegedly studying the problem of the Creed. Protestant churches prefer to pray the Apostles’ Creed, although they do recognize the Nicene Creed. The Catholic Church alternates between them. So not even this point should be a major problem.
The presentation of the gifts likewise does not present a major obstacle to the project.
According to Tosatti, the central issue lies in the Eucharist, since the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is profoundly different from that of the Lutherans or of other Protestant denominations. Catholics believe in Transubstantiation and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, while Protestants believe that it is merely a memorial.
Tosatti reports that a possible “solution” being proposed is that the words of Consecration be replaced by silence:
But how can a common liturgy be celebrated that clearly differs in the wording right at the most important point of the event?
One of the proposed possible solutions would be silence. It would mean that after the Sanctus, at the moment in which normally during the Mass the priest would say the words: “Father, you are holy indeed…” the different celebrants would keep silent, everyone mentally repeating “his own” formula.
The silence is broken in the congregation with the recitation of the Our Father. It is still not clear how the lines for Communion would be formed.
In light of this well-founded rumor, we should take heed of the remarks of Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, a close collaborator of Pope Francis and currently the President of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. The Vatican cardinal has suggested that we stop thinking of sacraments so rigidly as only either valid or invalid. For the sake of ecumenism, he opined that we should start looking into sacraments perhaps having “imperfect” or “partial” validity. Below are his exact words, as published in his exclusive interview with Edward Pentin of the National Catholic Register:
We say, everything is valid; nothing is valid. Maybe we have to reflect on this concept of validity or invalidity. The Second Vatican Council said there is a true communion [between Catholics and Protestants] even if it is not yet definitive or full. You see, they made a concept not so decisive, either all or nothing. There’s a communion that is already good, but some elements are missing. But, if you say some things are missing and that therefore there is nothing, you err. There are pieces missing, but there is already a communion, but it is not full communion. The same thing can be said, or something similar, of the validity or invalidity of ordination. I said let’s think about it. It’s a hypothesis. Maybe there is something, or maybe there’s nothing — a study, a reflection. ∎
by John Supplers, Veritas Vincit
That’s mighty Catholic of them
One of the proposed possible solutions would be silence. It would mean that after the Sanctus, at the moment in which normally during the Mass the priest would say the words: “Father, you are holy indeed…” the different celebrants would keep silent, everyone mentally repeating “his own” formula.
BACK TO THE FUTURE! In the mass of the ages, the priest prays the canon silently/in a low voice. So this would actually be an improvement over the novus ordo. :-)
I've been attending the mass of the ages for several years now, almost exclusively, and when I do have to attend the novus ordo the noisiness of it all is quite jarring to say the least.
I can't even begin to imagine the pain that Catholics experienced when the novus ordo was rammed down their throats.
They already can worship together. Any catholic is welcome to come into any catholic church and to fully participate. It is the bizarre and highly legalistic RCC that needs secret commissions to get approval for backdoor treaties, and to have them scrutinized by legions of celibate male legal scholars etc...to see if they can worship together.
Low voice =soto voce
Protestants believe it is a memorial meal, but Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’ body and blood “in with and under the bread and wine” in the sacrement because in the words of institution, Jesus said”This IS my body” and “This IS my blood.”
And folks will blame this on Francis. When in reality this is the logical next step in the New False Religion of Ecumenism that was promulgated at Vatican II.
Anybody is welcome at a Catholic mass now. You just can’t take communion.
It also gets into the doctrine of once saved always saved. If you are washed by the Blood of Christ, nothing can change that, not even the devil himself. If the sacrifice is ongoing then it is not a stretch to conclude that salvation and grace can be lost.
Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t need a pope...especially a commie one.
It's a sin for a Catholic to worship alongside heretics.
Indeed, He did say that.
He also said, "Do this in remembrance of me."He also said this, "For I tell you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”
And the Apostle Paul wrote, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."
Hello, txrefugee. Just axxing. With regards to your post:
“but Lutherans believe in the Real Presence of Jesus’ body and blood “in with and under the bread and wine” in the sacrement because in the words of institution, Jesus said”This IS my body” and “This IS my blood.””.
Seems to suggest that Jesus is co-mingled with the species.
Would that not mean that Jesus said, “This is My body and bread” and “This is my blood and wine” ?
That’s what the Greek behind it is finished means.
Proud to be a Catholic heretic.
I’m not surprised.
Pride is a sin.
In the TLM, that's done by the priest facing liturgical East and reciting the anaphora sotto voce -- partly hidden from sight and completely hidden from the ear. In the Byzantine rite, that's done by the iconostasis -- the action is completely hidden from sight for much of the liturgy. In the Novus Ordo, liturgical modesty is mostly lost.
As a conservative Lutheran, no thank you.
And they are not talking to the sane Lutherans, but the branch that likes to ordain women and marry gays.
The best thing would be just to go with what the Bible says in plain words and leave every thing else, but wait; that would not be popular with either the Catholics nor the Protestants would it?
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