Posted on 08/17/2017 7:46:36 PM PDT by marshmallow
August 16, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- Since Pope Francis has chosen not to respond to the five questions on whether his Exhortation Amoris Laetitia conforms to Catholic teaching, a “correction” of the ways his teaching departs from the Catholic faith is “necessary,” said Cardinal Raymond Burke in a new interview.
The Cardinal, who is one of the four who signed the dubia almost one year ago asking the Pope to clarify his teaching, explained in an interview with The Wanderer how the process for issuing a “formal correction” would proceed.
“It seems to me that the essence of the correction is quite simple,” Burke explained.
“On the one hand, one sets forth the clear teaching of the Church; on the other hand, what is actually being taught by the Roman Pontiff is stated. If there is a contradiction, the Roman Pontiff is called to conform his own teaching in obedience to Christ and the Magisterium of the Church,” he said.
“The question is asked, ‘How would this be done?’ It is done very simply by a formal declaration to which the Holy Father would be obliged to respond. Cardinals Brandmüller, Caffarra, Meisner, and I used an ancient institution in the Church of proposing dubia to the Pope,” the Cardinal continued.
“This was done in a very respectful way and not in any way to be aggressive, in order to give him the occasion to set forth the Church’s unchanging teaching. Pope Francis has chosen not to respond to the five dubia, so it is now necessary simply to state what the Church teaches about marriage, the family, acts that are intrinsically evil, and so forth. These are the points that are not clear in the current teachings of the Roman Pontiff; therefore, this situation must be corrected. The correction would then.....
(Excerpt) Read more at lifesitenews.com ...
Didn’t know there were rules on where the pope had to live. But I learn more about the rules of the RCC every day.
[[I find it deeply disturbing that just about every proclamation/comment the current Pope has made regarding important issues of faith and morality are in direct contradiction to what we were all taught by John Paul II and to what I was taught by the nuns in the 50’s and 60’s.]]
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater.
It’s the importance of following truth in what his word says instead of what someone in power says .
That’s why you believe scripture and not the words of men.
At Jesus first coming a lot of Jews missed him because they held their tradition above God’s word (which even told them that their Messiah would be coming 490 years after the decree was given to rebuilt the wall of Jerusalem they ignored it , they ignored Isaiah too when he stated their Messiah would die for them and bear the sins of many )
Look up my tag line ,that’s the Gospel.
You either trust him to save you or you don’t.
The pope saves no one , Mary saves no one , the Catholic church saves no one , you can’t be saved once your dead since it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgement
(Hebrews 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(Hebrews 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It’s only the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins.
(1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
No earthly priest can cleanse you from sin . Only Jesus blood does.That is why he died .
The pope is no high priest . The bible says Jesus is the high priest that makes intersession for us .
(Hebrews 6:19) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
(Hebrews 6:20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
You either trust Jesus or you don’t
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(John 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I leave these matters to the Holy Spirit. The lord works in mysterious ways and I do not attempt to discern them with my puny mortal mind. I do have faith however that should an ungodly man ascend to the seat of the roman pontiff the Lord through the power of the Holy Spirit will steer us back to the path of rightousness.
Spot on. It’ about trust in Christ....not an institution.
Suddenly some of these other Catholics are now getting a taste of their own medicine..and they don't much like it. The good thing is that they are finally getting the distinction we made long ago.
My next question was going to be about pre/post V2. Pretty big change for the group that claims they don’t change. Good of you to post.
I keep seeing this assertion; but it always comes with no EVIDENCE to back it up.
And...
OBEY the duly elected Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.
Had Luther tried to make a new religion, he would not have insisted so strongly upon keeping Word and Sacrament. He would have joined with Zwingli or Calvin. Instead, even after the Pope condemned him to death, he kept what was Scriptural.
Read the man’s actual words and debate those instead of just talking points.
Evidence, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Which raises the question of why you've contributed multiple posts to a thread devoted to a subject about which (by your own admission) you're completely ignorant?
And you have a very long way to go to learn about the Catholic religion.
This is every bit as much of a fantasy pipedream as a Trump Impeachment.
Bergoglio is never going to respond. He’ll dispatch the four Cardinals to outposts in the Arctic and Gobi Desert where they’ll never be heard from again. The majority will fall in line behind him. The Papacy is for all intents and purposes a Dictatorship.
People should quit raising their hopes over this.
The sheep will be separated from the goats and the wheat from the chaff and weeds. The harvest is near and the bridegroom is at the door. Those that did not trim their lamps and have enough oil and left to go to the market to purchase oil will be left wailing in the dark because they were not ready when the master arrived.
Agreed.
Rather, it is Catholics who say we are to uncritically follow a man - the pope and the magisterium under him - rather than our judgment of what the "inerrant word of God" is or means.
...in all cases there is a margin left for the exercise of faith in the word of the Church...in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.”
“All that we must do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”
“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”
“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”
“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.”
“..our act of confidence and of blind obedience is highly honoring to Almighty God,..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )]
"The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question. This places the Catholic in a position whereby he must stand aloof from all manner of doctrinal teaching other than that delivered by his Church through her accredited ministers."
The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: he possesses it in its fulness, as far as God and religion are concerned. His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit... (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )
it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty. Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord. - CASTI CONNUBII, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI; http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii.html
But obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces ...
when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority ; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope. (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912, as found at: (“Love the Pope! ” – no ifs, and no buts: For Bishops, priests, and faithful, Saint Pius X explains what loving the Pope really entails.)- http://christorchaos.com/?q=content/choosing-ignore-pope-leo-xiii-and-pope-saint-pius-x
While submission may not apply to everything a pope says, yet it is required for far more than only ex cathedra statements, and discerning the different magisterial levels and thus the varying degrees of submission is a matter subjerct to interpretation, which is what faithful RCs want to avoid. Thus the response of outsider facing this:
Boy. No disrespect intended...and I mean that honestly...but my head spins trying to comprehend the various classifications of Catholic teaching and the respective degrees of certainty attached thereto. I suspect that the average Catholic doesn't trouble himself with such questions, but as to those who do (and us poor Protestants who are trying to get a grip on Catholic teaching) it sounds like an almost impossible task.
The solution for which is cultic, just obey and don't question:
Praxis [practice] is quite simple for faithful Catholics: give your religious assent of intellect and will to Catholic doctrine, whether it is infallible or not. That's what our Dogmatic Constitution on the Church demands, that's what the Code of Canon Laws demand, and that is what the Catechism itself demands. Heb 13:17 teaches us to "obey your leaders and submit to them." This submission is not contingent upon inerrancy or infallibility. - http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=1565864#post1565864
The events of the past four years make it clear that this line of thinking is false. The reaction to Francis' attempted destruction of Catholic teaching and pastoral practice demonstrates that Catholics follow a faith and not a man
No, it simply means that (only) some Catholics choose past church teaching as they understand it, in contrast to this pope, who was "unanimously" elected by your leadership, which you are to follow, rather than acting like evangelicals, and ascertaining the validity of teaching based upon examination of the warrant for it.
Many RCs also reject other modern popes and part of modern teaching such as in and after V2, and whether this is the case or only the current pope and liberal leadership, the reality is that as much as they want to deny it, RCs engage in much interpretation, from just what valid church teaching is, to what level it belongs to, to what manner of submission is required, to its meaning. And even to who a valid pope is.
There is no playbook for this situation. Whatever you think of Catholicism, I'm here to tell you that you have front row seats to events of absolutely historical importance.
Well, you also had this:
Cardinal Bellarmine:
"Some years before the rise of the Lutheran and Calvinistic heresy, according to the testimony of those who were then alive, there was almost an entire abandonment of equity in ecclesiastical judgments; in morals, no discipline; in sacred literature, no erudition; in divine things, no reverence; religion was almost extinct. (Concio XXVIII. Opp. Vi. 296- Colon 1617, in “A History of the Articles of Religion,” by Charles Hardwick, Cp. 1, p. 10,)
• The Avignon Papacy (1309-76) relocated the throne to France and was followed by the Western Schism (1378-1417), with three rival popes excommunicating each other and their sees. Referring to the schism of the 14th and 15th centuries, Cardinal Ratzinger observed,
"For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.
"It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for the Church of Rome, “Principles of Catholic Theology,” trans. by Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, S.N.D. (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1989) p.196).
In contrast to the NT church church, the record of which does not manifest the distinctives of Catholicism , the church of Rome became much like the empire in which it was found, with a Caesariopapacy, in which her leader became an autocratic exalted supreme head, and who could employ the sword of men of secure and achieve her ends (as Damasus 1, for one, did) .
Thus a pope would have to agree to the body of bishops disposing him.
Arguing against Cardinal Cajetan Bellarmine states,
For if the Church deposes the Pope against his will it is certainly above the Pope...it must be observed in the first place that, from the fact that the Pope deposes bishops, it is deduced that the Pope is above all the bishops, though the Pope on deposing a bishop does not destroy the episcopal jurisdiction, but only separates it from that person. In the second place, to depose anyone from the pontificate against the will of the deposed, is without doubt punishing him; however, to punish is proper to a superior or to a judge. In the third place, given that according to Cajetan and the other Thomists, in reality the whole and the parts taken as a whole are the same thing, he who has authority over the parts taken as a whole, being able to separate them one from another, has also authority over the whole itself which is constituted by those parts.
Yet it is also argued that.
...according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church.
. https://www.fisheaters.com/bellarmine.html
However, it would be consistent with his exaltation for the pope to be the supreme judge of what heresy is.
Canon law 1404 states, The First See is judged by no one.
Dictatus papae [1075] (a compilation of 27 statements of powers arrogated to the Pope that was included in Pope Gregory VII's register under the year 1075), likewise asserts,
That he himself may be judged by no one. - http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/g7-dictpap.asp
>The First Vatican Council, which infallibly declared papal infallibly (overcoming opposition) stated:
So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema. [so much for the EOs] — First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 (1869-1870) http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm
"We read that the Roman Pontiff has pronounced judgments on the prelates of all the churches; we do not read that anybody has pronounced sentence on him"... The reason for which is stated thus: "there is no authority greater than that of the Apostolic See"... "That which the First See has not approved of cannot stand;..." — Leo XIII - Satis cognitum; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html
This is dealt with two basic ways. 1. Believe that "The Church" (of Rome) autocratically interprets and defines itself, so that while in the past was asserted "the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation;"
And that [ex cathedra] "it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff;"
And that "whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church;"
And that, "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors;"
And thus "not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart into everlasting fire,"
Yet V2 interprets/defines this to mean those
"who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
"...there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (Cf. Jn. 16:13) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ..."
"they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power."
Sources .
2. Deny that such discrepancies can be reconciled, and thus RCs can only obey the papal teaching which requires following leadership as docile sheep if one rejects modern popes as being true popes.
I HAVE?
Where??
Go to Catechism classes and come out poorly catechized.
At least this is what a LOT of FR Catholics claim.
Thank GOD! they do not mess with morals or doctrine!
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