Posted on 08/16/2018 8:52:58 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
"Can you give me a Bible verse on infant baptism?" I often hear this from Catholics who want to explain the Church’s teaching on the subject to non-Catholics.
Well, no and yes. No, because there is no Bible verse that says, "Baptize infants" (just as there is no Bible verse that says, "Do not baptize infants"). But, yes, I can give you a Bible verse on infant baptism if you understand that the Church’s teaching on this subject flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism.
In this article, I will focus on explaining, from the Bible, the Church’s teaching on original sin to help us understand the Church’s teachings on baptism. Most non-Catholics don’t care about what the pope says or what the Catechism says or what Vatican II says. They want to know: "Where is that in the Bible?"
The doctrine of original sin is that "in" Adam all have sinned. This parallels the doctrine of justification that "in" Christ all are righteous. Many Catholics do not fully understand or appreciate the importance of this parallel and how it weaves through much of Catholic teaching.
We can begin to understand this parallel—namely, through the first Adam all have died and through the second Adam (Christ) all have life—by looking at Romans 5. Verse 12 says that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin." And look at the evidence throughout verses 15–19: "Many died through one man’s trespass. . . . For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation. . . . Because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man. . . . Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men. . . . By one man’s disobedience many were made sinners."
Look at verse 16: "For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation." Who did it bring condemnation for? Adam only? No—verse 18 says, "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men" (emphasis added). This is stated even more clearly by the King James rendering the same verse: "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation."
These passages are all about the Church’s doctrine of original sin. Because of Adam’s sin, all men were made subject to sin and death. That is Scripture’s teaching on the doctrine of original sin.
This sin of Adam’s was not your ordinary sin. This was a sin that affected all mankind forever. This sin changed the course of human history. It did not just affect Adam personally; it also affected his human nature—which means it affected our nature, since we inherited it from him. Adam and Eve were created with immortal bodies. They knew no suffering, they knew no disease, they knew no death. Before the fall, their bodies would not have been subject to cancer or to Alzheimer’s disease or heart attacks or muscular dystrophy or sickle cell anemia or any one of a host of other diseases. But ours are.
Adam was tested by God not just as Adam but as the representative of the whole human race, since we are all the seed of Adam. Just as David and Goliath met on the battlefield as champions of their respective armies, Adam was our champion. If your champion lost in battle to the other army’s champion, then you lost the battle—even though you never unsheathed your sword and were never bloodied in battle. David slew the Philistines’ champion and the Philistines took off running (cf. 1 Sam. 17:51). In the battle against the evil one, Adam lost. As a result, we also lost.
Some folks have a problem with the concept that we, Adam’s posterity, should have to pay a price for a sin we didn’t commit. They do not understand how the Church is using the term original sin. As the Catechism says, "original sin is called ‘sin’ only in an analogical sense: it is a sin ‘contracted’ and not ‘committed’—a state and not an act" (CCC 404).
Adam’s sin changed everything—for him and for us. There was a fundamental change in man’s relationship with God. God no longer walked the earth with man. What’s more, Satan was now ruler of the world. There was a fundamental change in the relationship of man to nature and a fundamental change in nature itself (cf. Rom. 8:19–22). A fundamental change in the relationship between man and woman. A fundamental change in relationships among all men, since sin and death had entered the world. A fundamental change in the nature of man himself. It’s all right there in the Bible. And it is the Church’s teaching on the doctrine of original sin.
But for each of those verses in Romans 5 about how Adam’s disobedience affected us, there is a parallel verse describing how Jesus’ obedience affected us. This parallel is paramount. One man’s disobedience leads to death for all; one man’s obedience leads to life for all. We see this parallel in 1 Corinthians 15:21–22: "For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
Let’s expand for a minute on this concept of being "in" Adam. The writer of Hebrews says something interesting in referring to when Abraham and Melchizedek met in Genesis 14: "Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham. For he was still in the loins of his ancestor [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham]" (Heb. 7:9–10).
Levi wasn’t born for another seventy years or so after this incident of Abraham paying a tithe to Melchizedek, yet the Bible says that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek. How is that possible? Because Levi was in Abraham—in his loins, according to the Bible.
This is the same concept we are talking about with original sin and being in Adam and with salvation and being in Christ.
We are born with a fallen nature, a nature that is separated from God as a result of Adam’s sin. We have to be born again to become joined to God, to be in Christ, to become a member of the body of Christ, to be saved. We are born of Adam’s body into condemnation. We are born of Christ’s body unto salvation.
Finally, we reach the part where this ties into infant baptism. In the Gospel of John, Jesus says, "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). In verse 5 he repeats himself: "Unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
In other words, being born again is the same thing as being born of water and the Spirit, and it is a necessary condition for entering the kingdom of God. Jesus is saying that a man must be born of water and the Spirit—in other words, he must be baptized. The Bible tells us that you cannot enter the kingdom of God if you are not baptized.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Remember that: The Bible says that which is born of the flesh is flesh. Not only that, but "it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail" (John 6:63).
Now, when a child is born, it is born into the flesh. But the Bible tells us that the flesh is of no avail because of the consequences of original sin. That’s why Jesus says we have to be born again. The first birth is birth of the flesh, but we need something more in order to have life.
What is that something more? The Bible tells us: Everyone must be born of the Spirit in order to have eternal life; it is the Spirit that gives life, not the flesh. And how do we receive the Spirit? The Bible tells us that we receive the Spirit by being born again—by being born of water and the Spirit—by being baptized. We find this in Ezekiel 36:25–27, John 3:3–5, Acts 2:38, and elsewhere. When we are baptized we put on Christ (cf. Gal. 3:27). We are buried with him in baptism (Rom. 6:4). We become members of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). We receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). We become a new creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).
To sum up these last few paragraphs: Adam is the representative of the flesh. Christ is the representative of the Spirit. When we are born physically, born into the flesh, we are in Adam. When we are baptized—when we are born again, when we are born of the Spirit—we are in Christ. Infants need to be baptized, just like anyone else, so that they can be "in Christ," so that they can put on Christ, so that they can become children of God, so that they can become members of the body of Christ, so that they can be granted eternal life.
One other Scripture passage that I like to use when discussing original sin is found in Ephesians 2:3: "Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." We see here another very clear reflection of Catholic teaching in the Bible. Ephesians 2:3 is, in a nutshell, the Catholic teaching on original sin: We were by nature children of wrath. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches.
So can I give you a Bible verse on infant baptism? Yes, if you remember two things:
1. We are by nature children of wrath. Original sin is real. It is not something the Catholic Church invented. We are born of the flesh, not of the Spirit. We are not born in a state of holiness. We are born in a state of original sin.
2. Through baptism we are "born again" and made new creatures in Christ; through baptism our sins are forgiven. Through baptism we become members of the body of Christ, which is the Church. Through baptism we receive the Holy Spirit; through baptism we are saved. Baptism is necessary for salvation.
The washing away of original sin is a good and necessary thing. The joining of the infant to the body of Christ, the Church, is a good and necessary thing. The infant receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a good and necessary thing. The infant receiving the free gift of God’s salvation is a good and necessary thing.
It’s that simple. As Catholics, we want all these things for our children, not just for adults. Why would anyone want to deny infants and children the incredible gifts received through baptism? As the Bible tells us, the promise is to you and your children (cf. Acts 2:39). When you explain infant baptism in the context of original sin and sacramental baptism—of being born into a state of original sin and being born again into a state of grace—you make a very powerful argument on behalf of the Church’s teachings in this area. And you do it straight from the Bible.
The difference now is simply that the covenant has been sealed in sinless blood.
There is no more temporary atonement; there is no further sacrifice to be done.
Call it what you want.
I have a friend that throws himself at something that interests him with the goal of mastering it. He decided to learn Hebrew about 6 years ago. He reads, writes, and speaks it as though it is his only language.
Water baptism is indeed a process. The Ethiopian eunuch went down into the water, and came back up out of the water.
Baptism is a man made nicolaitan toy.
It is nowhere in the original scriptures.
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Mark 16:16
Also, Jesus commanded his apostles to remit sins (John 20:23).
Those are just a couple of verses that have been buried by traditions of men, not unlike the Law getting buried in the temple by the carelessness of men. God blessed and commended king Josiah for following it as commanded.
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Apples and oranges.
Are we having fruit salad?
The Israelites went down into the Red Sea, and came up out of it. “Baptized unto Moses” (1Cor. 10:1,2)
“nicolaitan”
Yeah, there’s plenty of that going on..... as prophesied.
Not 'my' argument. Genesis 1:2 describes the overthrow/casting down of the devil. Peter refers to Genesis 1:2 in his writing in II Peter 3... Jeremiah also describes the 'event' in Jeremiah 4:22 -
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
(The is not describing Noah's flood ... as there was at least 8 souls on the ark.)
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
God had Isaiah to declare that HE did not create this earth in vain ... same Hebrew words as used In Genesis 1:2...
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
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“Baptised” is a poorly translated word that Paul never spoke in his life.
Do you understand that?
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**Not ‘my’ argument. Genesis 1:2 describes the overthrow/casting down of the devil**
The earth was without form and void. I take that as lifeless.
As least your reading between the lines is not as far out as the steel hauler I met Tuesday while waiting for the loading dock. He said he has to warn of the end coming April 20th, 2020. He said that’s when Jupiter and Saturn line up and cause volcanic upheaval. I asked him if he has a survival plan. He said that he has been stocking up and building a secluded bunker. I asked him if his bunker somehow gets crushed with him in it, then what? He said, “no problem. I’ve already died 3 times”.
I started looking around the shipping office for a camera and mic, just in case it was some sort of gag. But he was totally serious.
God had Isaiah pen that HE did NOT create this earth without form and void... it became that way.
I far as I know none of the apostles spoke English.
Where does the “poor translation” argument begin and end?
(closing statement is yours. As I must turn in for the night)
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Every word of Yehova was delivered in the language of Judah (Hebrew), as Paul explaned to the Romans.
That is where it all ends.
Amen and second it.
“Peter is talking about the flood described in Genesis 1:2.”
God made the universe in 6 days:
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Genesis 1:31
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
There was no destruction of the earth with a flood or anything else during this time. (And there was no time before it because it was the beginning of time. These were the first 6 days ever.) What God created was in chaos because God had not yet brought order to it. The hosts of heaven, including the angels, were created on the fourth day. Satan was not around to do any destruction of the earth. When God completed His six-day creation, He declared that it was “very good”. There was not death before it entered the world through Adam’s sin.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
There was no flood in Genesis 1:2.
Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
There was no massive time interval in this verse.
Matthew 19:4
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female’”.
Jesus taught that the whole six-day time period was “The Beginning”. There was not a beginning of time in Gen. 1:1 with some massive time elapsing before God created the earth, the animals, mankind, etc. It was all “in the beginning”.
On the second day of creation, God created the atmosphere and the waters above and below the atmosphere. Before Noah’s flood, there was a body of water above the atmosphere.
Genesis 1:6-8
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
Peter is referring to this:
Genesis 7:11-12
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
See here? Water was above the firmament (atmosphere) and below it (on the ground and formed into bodies of water). There was a different ecosystem before Noah’s flood:
Genesis 2:5
Before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground, but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
Before the flood, there is no mention of rain. Irrigation was by a mist.
Later, at Noah’s flood, God caused a cataclysmic change. Apparently, the earth was shifted on its axis at this time, because this is where the four seasons appear to have started:
Genesis 8:22
While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.
This is also when God directed people to begin eating meat. And lifespans generally declined as well.
Your approach to interpreting Peter is not just resulting in error, it is a dangerous method of inserting conjecture and leaves the door open for all sorts of heretical ideas. Peter did not describe his teaching here as some mystery that had been hidden (like Paul described the transformation of living saints that will happen at the rapture). No, Peter asserts that the scoffers don’t know these things because they are “willingly ignorant”. This means God already revealed it. And, as I’ve pointed out, it is right there in Genesis.
“Peter is referencing the flood of Genesis 1:2 that describes this earth after the overthrow/ casting down of the devil.”
The Devil has not yet been cast down. The references to this in scripture are prophetic in nature. They are about events yet in the future. The angels who have been “cast down” thus far or the ones that sinned in the days of Noah. They were not cast down to earth but to Tartarus—the bottomless pit or abyss. These are the ones that will be briefly released in the Day of the Lord.
2 Peter 2:4-6
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly, and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly.
Jude 6-7
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
These angels that sinned did so in a specific time period. And their sin was specifically of a sexual nature.
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
“Christ call this ‘time’ ‘before the foundation of the world’... Greek word Katabolé”.
Only God existed before the foundation of the world. All of the verses you cited support this fact. In the beginning, the Word already was according to John 1.
“The ‘soul’ is the spirit body also called angels.”
The soul is the mind, will, and emotions. It is distinct from the spirit, as Hebrews tells us in 4:12.
“The man Adam was NOT alive until the ‘breath of life’, which means soul was breathed into his nostrils.”
God breathed into Adam the breath (spirit) of life and he BECAME a living soul. Adam, you, I, and all humans have bodies and spirits. We do not HAVE a soul. We are souls. Our souls function through our bodies and spirits. Our bodies are the interface our souls use to interact with the physical realm. Our spirits are the interface with which we interact with the spiritual realm. We receive our spirits through this original breath of God, which is passed down from parent to offspring in the womb. Our bodies are also formed from the material of our parents’ bodies, which ultimately came from the ground. Our bodies are from dust and return to dust when we die. Our spirits are from God’s breath and return to God. James tells us the definition of physical death is when the spirit is absent from the body.
“IT was not Christ’s flesh that John the Baptist in the womb of 6 months leap in recognition.”
Again, you are reading into the passage your own assumptions about things that are not contained in it:
Luke 1:39-41
Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
John the Baptist was developed enough in Elizabeth’s womb to be able to hear Mary’s words. John’s spirit, enabled by the Holy Spirit, discerned the presence of Christ for whom John was being sent as the forerunner to preach repentance.
Christ’s humanity became a permanent part of His identity at the incarnation when Mary supernaturally conceived Him, as His body was formed from the “seed of the woman” prophesied in Genesis 3. Christ died bodily. He rose bodily. He ascended into Heaven bodily. He became a man and remains a man. He is the man in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father.
The implications of the things you are advocating are that there is something innately and intrinsically evil about human flesh. This is false. It is a gnostic / occultic belief contrary to the word of God. It is specifically the type of anti-Christ teaching the apostles vigilantly guarded the early church against. I can not stress too greatly the danger of it. Do not attempt to mix secret knowledge with the revealed knowledge of scripture.
Paul warned in First Timothy against giving heed to fables and “endless genealogies” which refers to extra-Biblical creation myths that are pagan in nature and demonic in origin.
**Mikvah**
So the passages in Acts, where “baptized” is mentioned along with water don’t even exist in your scriptures?
Except Peter said that II Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
As was Written Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Those 'days' of creation were a thousand 'man' years each. The earth and 'universe' was created in Genesis 1:1... Genesis 1:2 is describing the katabolle, translated 'foundation of the world', which means 'casting down - overthrow'.
Both Isaiah and Ezekiel describe the 'casting down - overthrow' of Lucifer, who decided he was 'god'. This happened before Genesis 1:2 and God cast him down and he was judged to death.
The wages of sin is death (mortality).
An infant is mortal.
Thus an infant is sinful.
You confuse sinfulness, a state of being, with a sin, a specific act.
“For all have sinned...” That is pretty encompassing, including those who die in the womb, or after birth.
All are conceived in a state of sin - Original Sin: spiritual separation from God that requires supernatural intercessation to ameliorate.
All. Not some. Not those after an arbitrary so-called age of accountability.
The validity and efficacy of infant baptism - not the same thing, by the bye - is an entirely legitimate debate among well-meaning Christians, but it must not be conflated with the more basic, vital issue.
The sinful state - physical mortality and spiritual separation as a result of the Fall - of an infant is inarguable; to assert otherwise is heresy.
Colossians 2:11-12 connects baptism directly with circumcision. Jewish boys were always circumcised on the eighth day of life. Jews would expect that infants would be received into the covenant formally; that is what they were already used to.
Infant baptism is the default position assumed by Scripture.
My operating protect principle is that there is no such thing as perfect doctrine in any human institution - which is what denominations are.
Every earthly church has made-up doctrine - every single one.
Teaching as the doctrines of God the commandments of men is a pervasive error.
“We see through a glass darkly, but then face to face...”
I have extensive experience with many theologians and all major denominations. I long ago wearied of the prideful We-Alone-Are-Right-And-Everyone-Else-Will-Find-That-Out-In-Heaven attitude.
I hold what I hold emphatically; I also know that I am flawed and fallible like everyone else.
The entrenched insolence of the dogmatic clergyman was well described by an old friend:
“We have all the answers. What’s your question?”
You people are truly nuts. I can't say it any gentler than that.
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