Is It Fitting for Calvinists to Adopt the Theology of a Man, and One Who Murdered Servetus?

Ligonier Ministries ^ | May 2009 | R.C. Sproul

[CondoleezzaProtege]

The point is:

Both Protestants and Catholics fall short of the glory of God. Including in the areas of leadership/abuse of power and sexual immorality.

[Claud]

Once Augustine understood that it was by grace he was saved, he recalled some of his works to be burned. This is written in the final writings of Augustine.

He didn't burn anything. Shortly before his death, he examined some of his earlier works, yes, as Possidius tells us and the Retractations are still available to read. I haven't read them and they are hard to find online but I'll bet you there isn't anything in there that repudiates his earlier views on the episcopacy the Mass or anything else I mentioned.

Also, think it through...if he repudiated his Catholicism, why did Catholics canonize him and venerate him?

[Claud]

I think I just postred some of his teachings. We are on the same track.

I don't think we are on the same page. Well, maybe on Calvinists (I am not sure what your views are), but I can tell you flat out, if there was stuff in Augustine's writings that was inimical to Catholicism, then he wouldn't have been canonized, period, like Origen and Tertullian.

I keep saying this and no one will answer it, and I understand why because there is no good answer to it.

If Calvin just based his theology on Augustine....then how come he wasn't a bishop like Augustine? Why did Calvin repudiate the Mass that Augustine said? Where are the religious orders in Calvinism, that Augustine wrote rules for? Why couldn't the Calvinist Pilgrims even abide Christmas, when we have Augustine's sermons for Christmas and other feasts of the liturgical year, including the saints and martyrs?

The idea that Calvin was just following Augustine is positively delusional. Yes, there are some points of similarity on grace...but that's where it ends.

[Theophilus]

The act of choosing anything involves a confluence of biases, motivations, causes and circumstances that is quickly beyond my comprehension. I know that God created everything good. I know that the Sin of my father's and me has corrupted everything. And I know that Jesus alone makes all things new.

Revelation 21:5 
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful

[trebb]

Mortal men are just that - it is fallible mortals who "refined" the religions and we can see this (if we choose to open our eyes) in the on-going news about sexual predators running rampant in "The Church".

The Bible (even though compiled and edited by fallible men) is enough but too many religions insist that priests are necessary for one's salvation - IOW - Jesus just isn't enough.....

[ShadowAce]

I know that God created everything good.

Fixed it.

[HarleyD]

Perhaps "burned" is too strong of word. Augustine retracted some of his works when he realized his error. He discusses this in Chapter 7 of the Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints.

It was not thus that pious and humble teacher thought—I speak of the most blessed Cyprian—when he said "that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own." And in order to show the, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it?" And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe on God is not God's gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God's grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate. Among these is that which you have mentioned in your letters wherein is an exposition of certain propositions from the Epistle to the Romans. Eventually, when I was retracting all my small works, and was committing that retractation to writing,of which task I had already completed two books before I had taken up your more lengthy letters-Augustine

Please note that Augustine finally understood that grace must proceed faith. And he finally understood this from one of the earliest church fathers-Cyprian.

So every time Catholics take the Eucharist to receive God's grace, they negate the work of Christ simply because they do not accept the grace that God has given them.

[Elsie]

Elsie you prove my point.

I like helping out when I can.

[Elsie]

The Bible (even though compiled and edited by fallible men) is enough but too many religions insist that priests are necessary for one's salvation - IOW - Jesus just isn't enough.....

You make Mary cry!

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Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED. 

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

(Leo XIII: Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895) — [p. 19, no. 44]

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

She says, "He that shall find Me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord.   "Qui me invenerit, inveniet vitam, et hauriet salutem a Domino."

Listen," exclaims St. Bonaventure on these words, "listen, all you who desire the kingdom of God: honor the most Blessed Virgin Mary, and you will find life and eternal salvation."  "Audite qui ingredi cupitis regnum Dei: Virginem Mariam honorate, et invenietis vitam et salutem perpetuam."-psalt. B.V.ps.48.

 

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.

Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

 

“The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Supreme Apostolatus, September 1, 1883.) — [p. 32, no. 104]

“... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’”

(Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae, September 12, 1897.) [p. 68; no. 302]

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"Only She Can Help You"
by Father Nicholas Gruner, S.T.L., S.T.D. (Cand.)
In this letter introducing The Fatima Crusader Issue 38, Father Gruner discusses the growing lies and deception about Russia's errors and the consecration of that nation. He also reminds us that, while it is urgent that we be informed about and fight for Our Lady's cause, we must ask for Her help and intercession.

 

Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
In this article taken from The Glories of Mary, Saint Alphonsus explains that there are countless souls in Heaven who are there now only because Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them there. If a soul persists in true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, She will certainly lead that soul to Heaven.

 

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The Rosary
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is greatly important that Our Lady insisted on the Rosary. When at Fatima She spoke of the salvation of sinners, of the ruin of souls in hell, of wars and peace, and of the future of our age. Our Lady indicated and recommended the Rosary as the prayer that saves, that brings peace, that preserves the faith.

Hail Mary, Full of Grace
by Father Stefano Manelli, S.T.D.
It is truly a treasure to have a strong devotion to Our Lady, for it is She who unites us to Jesus and brings us to Heaven, as this article explains.

Mary, Our Life, Our Sweetness, Our Hope
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
St. Alphonsus de Liguori explains how Mary is our life, how She is our sweetness, and how She is our hope.

The historical record of the worship of Mary accumulated by St. Alphonsus de Liguori who wrote “The Glories of Mary” in the year 1745, which has been since translated into English and printed again and again and again with the full affirmation and imprimatur of the official Roman Catholic Church.  In this book there is the sum of all the glories of Mary which has been vouchsafe to the Roman Catholic Church and the Church itself calls upon all its constituents to give Mary that honor she is due.  She is identified as Mary, our Queen; Mary, our mother; Mary, our life; Mary, our sweetness; Mary, our hope; Mary, our help; Mary, our Mediatress; Mary, our advocate; Mary, our guardian; and Mary, our salvation.  It is said that Mary delivers us from hell, Mary delivers us from purgatory, and Mary leads us to heaven.  And it should be said that de Liguori, who collected all the Marion dogma and devotion, was himself one of the most celebrated and revered authorities in the Roman Catholic Church.  De Liguori was himself a cardinal in life, and a saint in death.

 

Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing". In this crisis which looms ahead of us, Our Lady has told us that we need Her help, Her intercession. We must ask for Her help with the Rosary and the Scapular.

At Fatima, Our Lady told us very plainly that "Only I can help you". Today more than ever is this so true.

Pray the Rosary and sacrifice yourself for Our Lady.

I urge you to also make some sacrifices as Our Lady of Fatima asked us. For those who are able, do some fasting. If you can, abstain from meat by eating meat only during one meal a day. Try to do this for two days, even ten days or 30 days. Of course we should abstain totally from meat every Friday.

 

 Jesus and Mary — Our Hope

It is so urgent that we reach as many souls as possible before it is too late. Let us be of good cheer and remember the words of Jesus to each of us, "It's never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary." That is why it is so important to reach the many millions of souls who do not know this, and who do not know the grave dangers lying in wait for their souls.

No, we must never lose hope. Mary is our hope. She can obtain for us what we cannot by ourselves. Read what St. Alphonsus has to say regarding confidence in Our Lady's intercession in "Mary Leads Her Servants to Heaven". Father Manelli also reminds us of the importance of devotion to Our Lady. (See "Hail Mary, Full of Grace"). Our Blessed Mother tells us to turn to Her in confidence. She tells us repeatedly to ask Her intercession through the frequent fervent praying of the Rosary. (See "The Rosary"). She tells us we must pray the Rosary every day. She wants us to pray it many times a day.

 

http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg2.asp

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"Blessed is he whose interior offers the Blessed Virgin Mary a place of repose." Devotion towards the Blessed Virgin remains in all who are the inheritance of Our Lord; that is to say, in all who will praise Him eternally in Heaven.

O, how many blessed souls are now in Heaven who would never have been there had not Mary, by Her powerful intercession, led them thither. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. Cardinal Hugo, in his commentary on the above text of Ecclesiasticus, says in the name of Mary, "I have caused as many saints in Heaven through Her intercession, who would never have been there but through Her ."

...in the words of St. Ambrose, "Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since Thou hast its keys." "Aperi nobis, O Virgo coelum, cujus claves habes." Nay more, the Church says, that "Thou art its gate." 

 

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St. Antoninus tells us "that this divine Mother has already, by Her assistance and prayers, obtained Heaven for us, provided we put no obstacle in the way."23

Hence, says Abbot Guerric, "he who serves Mary, and for whom She intercedes, is as certain of Heaven as if he was already there."24

St. John Damascene also says, "that to serve Mary and be Her courtier is the greatest honor we can possibly possess; for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and live under Her commands is more than to govern."25

On the other hand, he adds, "that those who do not serve Mary will not be saved; for those who are deprived of the help of this great Mother are also deprived of that of Her Son and of the whole court of heaven."26

 23.  "Coeleste nobis regnum, suo interventu auxiliis, et precibus, impetravit."—Paciucch. Sup. Salve Reg. exc. I.
 24. "Qui Virgini famulatur, ita securus est de paradiso, ac si esset in paradiso."
 25. "Summus honor, servire Mariæ, et de ejus esse familia; etenim ei servire, regnare est; et ejus agi frænis, summa libertas."
 26. "Gens quæ non servierit illi, peribit; gentes destitutæ tantæ Matris auxilio, destituuntur auxilio Filii et totius curi’‘ coelestis."— De Laud. B. M. I. 4.

Cardinal Hugo http://fatima.org/crusader/cr38/cr38pg3.asp 

 

 

 

[ConservativeDude]

Germany, even with its love of blood and soil, is a legitimate and identifiable and sustainable tradition within the larger context of western civilization.

But it has to be moderated....not destroyed, but moderated.

Judaism is of course not only compatible with western civilization, it is a pillar. And that includes the secure existence of Israel.

Islam is not compatible with any civilization, except an enslaved civilization. Which is of course not civilized.

Liberalism is a western civilization heresy and exaggeration of some of our important values, at the expense of all others. Like GErmany,liberalism has to be moderated or else it becomes a cancer.

The sad thing is that a robust Germany, liberalism, Judeo-Christianity, and good ole republican virtues (from Rome and America’s founding) all can find legitimate and worthy expression within the context of western civilization. It’s a delicate balance, but with the right institutions, very doable.

But the global/socialistic/green/islamic/open borders institutions destroy all that. :(

[Claud]

Please note that Augustine finally understood that grace must proceed faith.

Trent:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

I can't see how what you said above is any different from the Catholic view.

So every time Catholics take the Eucharist to receive God's grace, they negate the work of Christ simply because they do not accept the grace that God has given them.

What do you mean, Catholics do not accept a grace? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Calvin's position was that I was predestined and had no free will to either accept or reject grace.

The Catholic view is this: Everything, *everything* comes from grace BUT ALSO the will is free to accept or reject that grace. That's a tough one to square I know, but that's what has come down to us. Any attempt to "simplify" the doctrine by abandoning either grace or free will is anathema.

And anyway, I know you want to drag this back to soteriology (admittedly not my strong point) but my point was much wider. Did Augustine retract his views on the Mass, on the episcopate, on celibacy, on feast-days?

[Elsie]

bump

[vpintheak]

Agreed

[HarleyD]

Compare the Council of Trent to the Council of Orange statements:

CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed"! [Note: Compare with Orange CANON 5 > If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly ... belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8)....]

CANON V.- If anyone shall affirm, that since the fall of Adam, man’s freewill is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing titular, yea a name, without a thing, and a fiction introduced by Satan into the Church; let such an one be accursed"! [Note: Compare with Orange CANON 8 > If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

I have heard the arguments that the Council of Orange was 1) a small regional council that wasn't in authority, 2) was wrong in their statements, or 3) that things were lost in the translation (please see Catholic Answer Forum-Why Does It Appear That the Council of Orange Contradicts the Council of Trent). It is appartent that I'm not the only one who noticed the contradictions. I just happen to not accept the answers provided.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Calvin's position was that I was predestined and had no free will to either accept or reject grace.

This isn't Calvin's view but Christ's view: Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. All believers are drawn by God and given to Christ. Many (both Catholics and Protestants) seem to hate this idea but it simply scripture and I accept it for what it states.

And anyway, I know you want to drag this back to soteriology (admittedly not my strong point)

It would be worth while to study soteriology. There are only two; monergism and synergism.

Did Augustine retract his views on the Mass, on the episcopate, on celibacy, on feast-days?

And what did Augustine state about predestination? I suspect you don't agree with him on that. Most Catholics think he was in error. So one has to wonder why they would say he's right on mass and not predestination.

As for myself, I can read these early fathers knowing that these are not inspired writings. It becomes a bit more difficult when Catholics claim they follow the early church fathers yet ignore major teachings or say they were in error.

[af_vet_1981]

Not a Calvinist, but got to ask: Is it fitting for ANY Christian to adopt the so-called “theology of a man,” especially since he murdered an Egyptian servant? (Moses)

Yes; Moses was a true prophet; Calvin, et. al. were neither true prophets nor true apostles.

And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

...

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

...

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter eighteen, Protestant verses seventeen to nineteen ,
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter thirty four, Protestant verses ten to twelve ,
Matthew, Catholic chapter seventeen, Protestant verses one to three ,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[Colofornian]

Both are filters for Christian truth...even as their degrees for accurately unveiling that truth vary. So unless you label Calvin an outright “false prophet,” then you agree with me he was used by God as a filter for truth in his generation (and beyond). If you so agree, then my parallel comparison to Moses stands. If, on the other hand, you deem him a false prophet...then since he’s been around for centuries, you must have dozens from the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries who wrote saying as much with specific evidence to boot. No, you don’t have that? Then you’re just a Johnny-come-theological-lately minor opinion monger with an ahistorical minute opinion being offered up.

[trebb]

Oh my - it's even worse than I thought - except when a child and still in the Catholic Church, I've never prayed to Mary - or any of the other dead mortals since I discovered Jesus gave us a direct line to The Father....The Father, Son and Holy Spirit love our prayers directed His way.

God Bless

[Elsie]

...but it simply scripture and I accept it for what it states.

But scripture is NOT simple, and I accept it for what Rome SAYS it means.

(Genesis 3 reference.)

--Wannabe_Catholic_Dude(Hail Mary)

[Elsie]

It becomes a bit more difficult when Catholics claim they follow the early church fathers yet ignore major teachings or say they were in error.

Like THIS???

[Elsie]

Most Catholics think he was in error.

Don't know 'bout MOST of us; but I'll leave all this conflictin' stuff to our current leadership to figger out.

For me; I'll jus' follow what I'm told during Mass.

--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Hail Mary)