WHY I BECAME A PRETERIST

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 10, 2024 | Charles Meek

[grumpa]

With a measure of teeth gnashing, and years of study—I became convinced that the preterist view of eschatology is the correct one. Here are some reasons why.

1. I could no longer ignore, in good conscience, the over 100 time-statements in the New Testament that limit fulfillment of the prophesied events to the lifetimes of the New Testament writers. (There really are over 100 of them.) Preterism 101

2. I looked up every mention in the New Testament of the “last days,” “end,” or “end times” and found that all 19 such mentions are consistent. Without exception, the writers of the New Testament wrote that THEY were living in the last days. So, unless they were false teachers, the last days had to be the end of the old covenant world―not the end of the physical universe. While the new covenant began at the cross, the old covenant ended in finality in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed (Hebrews 8:13).

3. I realized that I was ignorant about what happened in Jerusalem in AD 70―and the theological significance of these events, especially surrounding the destruction of the temple and the sacrificial and priestly systems.

4. I heard some Christians, including pastors, say that “The disciples expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes, but they were simply wrong.” Knowing that the disciples got their views from Jesus himself, and believing in the inerrancy of the Bible, I cannot accept that they were wrong. But it was either they were wrong, or else Christians have misunderstood what the writers meant by Jesus’ Parousia. At least some of the passages about the timing of the Second Coming must have been about Jesus “coming in judgment” against apostate old covenant Israel in AD 70, much like YHWH “came in judgment” against nations in the Old Testament―as preterists teach. That answers the skeptics who said Jesus was a false teacher.

5. I realized that if Jesus and his disciples were wrong about the timing of fulfillment of the prophetic events, the charges against Christianity concerning Jesus being a false teacher would be true. The preterist view is the only one that answers the critics’ charges. Jesus kept his word. He was not a false prophet. There is no need to make excuses for Him or gloss over passages that don’t fit your presuppositions from the echo-chamber.

6. I was interested to discover that Jesus, as well as his disciples, stated that virtually all OLD TESTAMENT prophecy would be completed in their literal generation—that is, the first century (Luke 21:22; Acts 3:24).

7. It became excruciatingly clear that many high-profile preachers, especially dispensationalists, have made glaringly false predictions about the rapture, Second Coming, and the end of the world. These charlatans (yes, that’s a strong but deserved charge) include Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, Benny Hinn, Grant Jeffrey, Jerry Falwell, John Walvoord, Harold Camping, Perry Stone, etc., etc. These men added to false predictions by Christians for 2000 years, making a continuous mockery of Christianity. Something has been very wrong about prophecy. False Prophets

8. I noticed that Christians tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of the daily news events (“newspaper eschatology”)—and have accordingly been making false and embarrassing predictions about the end of the world for 2,000 years. The preterist view restores credibility to Christianity. If they would be reading through the lens of the original audience instead, they would get a different picture.

9. I have heard Christians argue that language such as “moon turning to blood,” “coming on clouds,” “make the heavens tremble,” etc. should be understood literally. I was always skeptical about literalizing these phrases, and my closer investigation revealed that my skepticism was warranted. Such phrases are typical non-literal Hebraic apocalyptic language to describe God’s intervention (usually judgment) on nations in history. Apocalyptic Language

10. I learned that over 130 competent scholars have been identified as teaching that Revelation was written prior to AD 70, and that Revelation is mostly about the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple during the Jewish-Roman War of AD 66-70. Recommended book: Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry.

11. I discovered that there are over 30 passages in Revelation that (a) demand fulfillment soon after being penned, and (b) Revelation does not introduce new concepts, but rather connects the events described there with the same ones mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. Revelation Theme

12. I noticed that objections to preterism are shallow, disjointed, biased, arbitrary, and inconsistent. Objectors are willfully blind about key passages and mostly regurgitate things they have heard from people who have not really studied the issue either. I particularly noticed that my preterist posts on Christian websites were mostly answered with anger and snark, with very little actual substantive biblical exegesis. I find this quite telling.

13. Bible teachers to whom I had been listening could not give meaningful answers to my challenging questions about prophecy. Worse, they seemed less interested in truth, and more interested in defending a presumptive position. I wanted to follow the Shepherd, not the sheep. I wanted to defend God’s Word, not an institution or creed.

14. I was really surprised at how professing conservative Christians take such pains to explain away the obvious in the Bible. They can twist Scripture and think they are doing the Bible a favor. For example, Jesus said “Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place.” We can be sure that “this generation” means the generation to whom Jesus was speaking (and not some distant generation). Why? Because every other mention of “this generation” in the New Testament is clearly about the first-century generation. Study more about Scripture Twisting in this article:

(Share this with your friends to start a good discussion about eschatology!)

[Kalamata]

>>1. Paul did not say some of His audience would be alive.<<

Grammatically, that is exactly what he said.

>>2. The Spirit nor Paul lied. You misinterpreted the passage Mr K.<<

I would almost certainly misinterpret if I ignored the grammar and those to whom he addressed the letters.

>>When we’re all believer alive caught up into the clouds?<<

If you believe Paul was writing that letter to you, rather than the Thessalonians, then we disagree.

>>Where is that major event recorded in history?<<

Where is the parting of the Red Sea recorded in history? The resurrection of Christ?

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> seems to be the eyes of “the tribes of the land of Israel

Where does history record that every eye of the tribes of Israel witnessed Christ coming on the clouds?

Where does history record every Jew being caught up worldwide into the clouds?

[ealgeone]

Where is the parting of the Red Sea recorded in history? The resurrection of Christ?

Parting of the Red Sea is documented in Exodus.

I seriously cannot believe you asked where the resurrection of Christ is documented.

If you are doubting the resurrection then we have much bigger issues to discuss than the meaning of γῆς.

[ealgeone]

The most consequential to eschatology, in my opinion, is Revelation 1:7. In context it says that some who pierced him would still be alive. Jesus said that when he returned, his disciples (or at least some of them) would witness his return. Therefore, a more contextually sound understanding of “every eye” seems to be the eyes of “the tribes of the land of Israel” when all scripture and historical records are considered.

The tense and mood of the verbs in v7 point to a certain future event which had not happened at the time John was given this. 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

4John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7 is much broader than just Israel. It is a worldwide application:

Every eye will see Him.

all the tribes of the earth.

[Kalamata]

>>Where does history record that every eye of the tribes of Israel witnessed Christ coming on the clouds?<<

It depends on how you define “every.” An example of Jesus using the word “every” [πάσῃ] in a limited sense is found in this commandment:

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” — Mar 16:15 KJV

Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every [πάσῃ] creature under heaven before he wrote the letter to the Colossians:

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” — Col 1:23 KJV

If I was a strict literalist who interpreted each word as if it had no limitations, I would have to call Paul a liar. But I know the Holy Spirit doesn’t lie, so I am obliged to believe the commandment to preach the gospel to every creature was fulfilled.

>>Where does history record every Jew being caught up worldwide into the clouds?<<

History has not recorded that, nor will it ever. Only a remnant of Israel was saved:

“Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.” — Rom 9:27-28 KJV

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

It depends on how you define “every.” An example of Jesus using the word “every” [πάσῃ] in a limited sense is found in this commandment:

“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” — Mar 16:15 KJV

*****

I'm don't know what your background in New Testament Greek is but it's very lacking.

There is no limited application in the above command to preach the gospel to every creature.

*****

Greek translations of the passage in question and the definition of πάσῃ.

3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

[When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

Berean Greek New Testament 2016 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς “Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

SBL Greek New Testament 2010 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Westcott and Hort 1881 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants] καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants} καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005 Καὶ εἴπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Tischendorf 8th Edition 1872 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει

Beza Greek New Testament 1598 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα, κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.

*****

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him.

Hasn’t happened in history.

Scripture says gods elect will be caught up with Christ in the clouds.

Hasn’t happened in history.

It seems you spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out ways to rationalize away scripture to make it support the view you (said) you predecided.

Pretty sure that’s classic eisegesis …

[Kalamata]

>>Parting of the Red Sea is documented in Exodus. I seriously cannot believe you asked where the resurrection of Christ is documented.<<

Your response is a non sequitur.

>>If you are doubting the resurrection then we have much bigger issues to discuss than the meaning of γῆς.<<

I believe every word of God. I believe God created heaven and earth in six days. I believe God created man from the dust of the ground on the sixth day. I believe God destroyed Sodom by raining fire and brimstone on it. I believe God parted the Red Sea. I believe the gospels that say Jesus rose from the dead. I believe Jesus when he said he would return to gather his elect during his own generation. I believe every eye saw him return. I believe Satan and his works will be destroyed. I believe the nations will be healed.

Do you doubt any of that? If not, what do you believe?

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

The scripture says it happened.

>>Scripture says gods elect will be caught up with Christ in the clouds. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

The scripture says it happened.

>>It seems you spend a lot of mental energy trying to figure out ways to rationalize away scripture to make it support the view you (said) you predecided. Pretty sure that’s classic eisegesis …<<

It seems you were taught what to believe.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

My reply was a perfect response to such an outlandish question such as yours.

Brief recall...it was you who asked where the resurrection was documented. Hence why I asked the question I did.

You need to be more precise in your answers vs trying to be cute or snarky.

[ealgeone]

ampu: >>Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<

kal: The scripture says it happened.

Please show us.

[Kalamata]

>>My reply was a perfect response to such an outlandish question such as yours. rief recall...it was you who asked where the resurrection was documented. Hence why I asked the question I did.<<

If you had been paying attention to the conversation you would know why I asked that question.

>>You need to be more precise in your answers vs trying to be cute or snarky.<<

Says the king of snark . . .

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.

If you can't handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.

[Kalamata]

>>>>ampu: Scripture says “every eye” including Jewish eyes will see him. Hasn’t happened in history.<<<<
>>>kal: The scripture says it happened.<<<

>>Please show us.<<

Okay.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” — Rev 1:1-3 KJV

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” — Rev 1:7 KJV

If you believe “must shortly come to pass” and “the time is at hand” (i.e., “the time is nigh”) means 2000 years, then nothing I say will convince you.

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.<<

Baloney.

>>If you can’t handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.<<

It appears from your attitude that you are having difficulty handling the conversation.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Well, I can see you don't know how to handle the Word.

The passages you posted do not say what you so desperately want them to say to fit whatever theology you adhere to.

But I can assure you of this: your understanding of these passages is incorrect.

If you want to persist in believing all of this happened in 70 AD...and not one person noticed this in all of early church history post 70 AD....then I cannot help you.

[ealgeone]

>>Bro, I was following the conversation. When you ask an outlandish question be prepared to be challenged.<<

Baloney.

Comical reply. However, you question was an outlandish one...and remains so. Now that you've been called on it you're trying to excuse the stupidity of the question.

>>If you can’t handle the discussion then go watch youtube or something else.<<

It appears from your attitude that you are having difficulty handling the conversation.

Comical again.

Trust me...I've had debates with people far more knowledgeable than you.

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

No, I was taught the languages, translation, etc.

My beliefs come from the disciplines - not starting from a conclusion and fitting the interpretation to it.

[Kalamata]

>>Well, I can see you don’t know how to handle the Word.<<

You don’t seem to know very much at all.

>>The passages you posted do not say what you so desperately want them to say to fit whatever theology you adhere to.<<

What do the passages I posted say? (This should be interesting...)

>>But I can assure you of this: your understanding of these passages is incorrect.<<

I can assure you that you don’t know what you are talking about.

>>If you want to persist in believing all of this happened in 70 AD...and not one person noticed this in all of early church history post 70 AD....then I cannot help you.<<

I am certain you cannot “help” me.

Regarding Church history, when the inspired people (the elect) were raptured about 66 AD, inspired writings abruptly ceased. Afterward came the dark or silent period in which Gnostics, Judaizers, and other heretics dominated. Then came those known as the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) from which 1900 years of false end-time and apocalyptic prophecies arose which harmed countless lives and livelihoods. If that is your idea of Christianity then count me out.

You are welcome to try to dispute that bit of history, but include references. I don’t trust your opinions.

Mr. Kalamata

[ealgeone]

Regarding Church history, when the inspired people (the elect) were raptured about 66 AD, inspired writings abruptly ceased.

Ok...we're not dealing in reality any longer in this conversation.

You display a complete lack of knowledge of the Bible, Greek and overall history.

You can have the last word.

I'm out.