The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

When God says something, He means something.

Absolutely!

If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, `Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, `and let us serve them,'
you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall walk after your God and fear him, and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and cleave to him. (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)

[ksen]

Great! So when did Jesus to tell the Israelites to go after other gods?

-Kevin

[nate4one]

Anyone remember Vancouver?

Just creating some drama I assure you.
It won't be long...

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Does it have to be only one of these?

The identifying marks of the woman are the sun, moon, and stars. These belong to Israel as seen in Joseph’s dream: “And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” (Gen. 37:9–10). Old Jacob interpreted the sun, moon, and stars to mean himself, Rachel, and Joseph’s brothers. And they did bow down before Joseph before things were over with (although Rachel had died by that time).

At Christmastime we all use Isaiah 9:6 and other verses concerning the birth of Christ. This verse does concern the birth of Christ, but it does not concern us at all; rather, it concerns the nation Israel. “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isa. 9:6). Who is referred to here when Isaiah says, “Unto us”? The church? No; it’s the nation Israel. It is quite obvious that Isaiah is speaking to the nation Israel, and he is speaking not relative to a Savior but to a Governor, a Ruler, a King, One who was to come and rule over them. “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given.”

The writer to the Hebrews says, “For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda …” (Heb. 7:14). Paul writes in Romans: “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen” (Rom. 9:4–5). Paul is talking about Israel. He begins by asking the question: “Who are Israelites?” The answer just happens to be: “And of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came.” The woman at the well was accurate when she identified the Lord Jesus as a Jew: “… How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? …” (John 4:9)

“Travailing in birth” is a figure associated with Israel: “Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children” (Isa. 66:7–8). Israel will go through the Great Tribulation after Christ was born in Bethlehem—“before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child,” meaning Christ.

Therefore, we identify the woman as the nation Israel. No one woman who has ever lived, including the Virgin Mary, fits into this. It is the nation Israel and certainly not the church of all ages. If we just keep our bearings here and not lose our heads, we know that this is the Great Tribulation Period and that the church has already gone to heaven. This woman is not the church of all ages.

“Being tormented.” Certainly Israel has suffered satanic anti-Semitism from the time of the birth of Christ to the present, in fact, even since before that day, because Satan knew that Christ would come from this nation.

BigMack

[ksen]

Hey, check this out. My wife just forwarded it to me at work:

Do you remember this? It was 1987!

At a lecture the other day, they played an old news video of Lt. Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings during the Reagan Administration.

There was Ollie in front of God and country getting the third degree, BUT, what he said was stunning! He was being grilled by some senator;

"Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home security system?"

Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir"

The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience,"Isn't that just a little excessive?"

"No, Sir," continued Ollie.

"No? And why not?" the senator asked.

"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, Sir."

"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.

"By a terrorist, sir." Ollie answered.

"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"

"His name is Osama Bin Laden, sir." Ollie replied.

At this point the Senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn't pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A couple of people laughed at the attempt.

Then the senator continued. "Why are you so afraid of this man?" the senator asked.

"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of." Ollie answered.

"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.

"Well, sir, if it were up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the earth."

The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown of the clip.

In case you're interested, the senator was Al Gore.

Heh heh, I'm sure all the networks will be reporting on this tonight. ;^)

-Kevin

[nate4one]

Pegleg I would agree that anybody who believes in dispensationalism needs counseling.
Ksen Oohh, provocative, care to elaborate?

Yes.

When you look at the theories behind the crazed maze of explination and mystic nonsense...

You can't help but categorize them as being a little loopy! :o)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

When you look at the theories behind the crazed maze of explination and mystic nonsense...

This from you...ROFLOL. :)

BigMack

[malakhi]

Great! So when did Jesus to tell the Israelites to go after other gods?

Did Jesus teach that he was God incarnate?

More to the point is the matter of keeping the commandments, which Paul explicitly tossed out the window.

[malakhi]

Anyone remember Vancouver?

No, but I remember Paris... ;o)

[ksen]

When you look at the theories behind the crazed maze of explination and mystic nonsense...

You can't help but categorize them as being a little loopy! :o)

No, no, no, we were talking about Dispensationalists not Preterists. ;^)

-Kevin

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

No, but I remember Paris... ;o)

From this and your posts last night, it looks like you may have scored a bag from some where, yes, no? :)

BigMack

[malakhi]

That story is an internet hoax. From www.snopes.com:

The terrorist North mentioned in his testimony was not Osama bin Laden, however. To the extent that bin Laden was known to the western world in 1987, it was not as a "terrorist" but as one of the U.S.-backed "freedom fighters" participating in the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden's hatred of the U.S. and conversion to "terrorist" status is not believed to have come about until the Gulf War of 1990-91, when he was outspokenly critical of Saudi Arabian dependence upon the U.S. military and denounced U.S. support of a "corrupt, materialist, and irreligious" Saudi monarchy. (The Saudi Arabian government stripped bin Laden of his citizenship in 1994 for his funding of militant fundamentalist Islamic groups.)

No, Oliver North did not testify about or speak the name Osama bin Laden during the Iran-Contra hearings. He claimed that threats against his life had been made by terrorist Abu Nidal, telling a congressional committee:

I want you to know that I'd be more than willing . . . to meet Abu Nidal on equal terms anywhere in the world. There's an even deal for him. OK? But I am not willing to have my wife and my four children meet Abu Nidal or his organization on his terms.

To emphasize his point, North showed the committee a blow-up of a newspaper article detailing the atrocities of Abu Nidal and recalled that an 11-year-old girl named Natasha Simpson, the daughter of an Associated Press news editor, had been gunned down (along with four other Americans) during an attack by an Abu Nidal group on the El Al terminal at the Rome airport in December 1985. North also later claimed that an attempt on his life had been made five months before his congressional testimony at the instigation of Libyan leader Mohmmar Qadaffi:

In February 1987, Muammar Ghadaffi ordered his thugs to carry out a threat made against me in 1986. Thankfully, the FBI intercepted the well-armed perpetrators on the way to our home, and my family and I were sequestered for a time on a military base. The orders from Tripoli were delivered to a terrorist cell in Virginia -- at the offices of The People's Committee for Libyan Students.

So no, Oliver North didn't warn us back in 1987 about Osama bin Laden's "potential threat to the security of the world" or suggest that bin Laden be hunted down by "an assassin team," nor was he given the brush-off by a clueless senator "who disagreed with this approach." Eventually, Col. North drafted his own response to this piece of misinformation:

FROM THE DESK OF LTCOL OLIVER L. NORTH (USMC) RET. NOVEMBER 28, 2001

OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, I HAVE RECEIVED SEVERAL THOUSAND E-MAILS FROM EVERY STATE IN THE U.S. AND 13 FOREIGN COUNTRIES IN WHICH THE ORIGINATOR PURPORTS TO HAVE RECENTLY VIEWED A VIDEOTAPE OF MY SWORN TESTIMONY BEFORE A CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE IN 1987.

A COPY OF ONE OF THOSE E-MAILS IS ATTACHED BELOW. AS YOU WILL NOTE, THE ORIGINATOR ATTRIBUTES TO ME CERTAIN STATEMENTS REGARDING USAMA BIN LADEN AND OTHER MATTERS THAT ARE SIMPLY INACCURATE. THOUGH I WOULD LIKE TO CLAIM THE GIFT OF PROPHESY, I DON'T HAVE IT.

I DON'T KNOW WHO SAW WHAT VIDEO "AT UNC." (OR ANYWHERE ELSE) BUT, FOR THE RECORD, HERE'S WHAT I DO KNOW:

1. IT WAS THE COMMITTEE COUNSEL, JOHN NIELDS, NOT A SENATOR WHO WAS DOING THE QUESTIONING.

2. THE SECURITY SYSTEM, INSTALLED AT MY HOME, JUST BEFORE I MADE A VERY SECRET TRIP TO TEHRAN, COST, ACCORDING TO THE COMMITTEE, $16K, NOT $60K.

3. THE TERRORIST WHO THREATENED TO KILL ME IN 1986, JUST BEFORE THAT SECRET TRIP TO TEHRAN, WAS NOT USAMA BIN LADEN, IT WAS ABU NIDAL (WHO WORKS FOR THE LIBYANS -- NOT THE TALIBAN AND NOT IN AFGHANISTAN).

4. I NEVER SAID I WAS AFRAID OF ANYBODY. I DID SAY THAT I WOULD BE GLAD TO MEET ABU NIDAL ON EQUAL TERMS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD BUT THAT I WAS UNWILLING TO HAVE HIM OR HIS OPERATIVES MEET MY WIFE AND CHILDREN ON HIS TERMS.

5. I DID SAY THAT THE TERRORISTS INTERCEPTED BY THE FBI ON THE WAY TO MY HOUSE IN FEB. 87 TO KILL MY WIFE, CHILDREN AND ME WERE LIBYANS, DISPATCHED FROM THE PEOPLE'S COMMITTEE FOR LIBYAN STUDENTS IN MCLEAN, VIRGINIA.

6. AND I DID SAY THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAD MOVED MY FAMILY OUT OF OUR HOME TO A MILITARY BASE (CAMP LEJEUNE, NC) UNTIL THEY COULD DISPATCH MORE THAN 30 AGENTS TO PROTECT MY FAMILY FROM THOSE TERRORISTS (BECAUSE A LIBERAL FEDERAL JUDGE HAD ALLOWED THE LYBIAN ASSASSINS TO POST BOND AND THEY FLED).

7. AND, FYI: THOSE FEDERAL AGENTS REMAINED AT OUR HOME UNTIL I RETIRED FROM THE MARINES AND WAS NO LONGER A "GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL." BY THEN, THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAD SPENT MORE THAN $2M PROTECTING THE NORTH FAMILY. THE TERRORISTS SENT TO KILL US WERE NEVER RE-APPREHENDED.

SEMPER FIDELIS,
OLIVER L. NORTH

[malakhi]

From this and your posts last night, it looks like you may have scored a bag from some where, yes, no? :)

No, really, I'm like this when I'm stone cold sober. Scary, isn't it? ;o)

[ksen]

Did Jesus teach that he was God incarnate?

Yes, are you saying that YHWH could not become incarnate if He wanted to?

More to the point is the matter of keeping the commandments, which Paul explicitly tossed out the window.

Deuteronomy 18:
[15] The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
[16] According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[17] And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[18] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
[19] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (KJV)

Who could Moses be talking about?

-Kevin

[ksen]

That story is an internet hoax.

Oh, killjoy. ;^)

-Kevin

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Who could Moses be talking about?

angelo knows hes talking about Jesus, hes just too hardheaded to admit it, I was wishing you were coming to the get together, we could of double teamed him there, and if that didn't work, we could of kidnaped him and took him out to the deep woods were no one could here him scream! :)

BigMack

[gracebeliever]

At what time/point did the Body of Crhist come into being?

I thought I answered this question, which is the same question you've asked a number of times. When do you think the Body of Christ began, that is if you believe there is a Body of Christ at all?

The true Israel of God no longer exists then?

That's true for today. But in the future, Israel will be reborn by God. That's what Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about in John 3, where He says, "Ye must be born again." "Ye" is plural and refers to the Nation Israel. This probably differs from your church's theology, but this is what the Bible states in Romans 9-11.

Wouldn't that be a violation of programs? I thought it was for gentiles only?

I think you're pulling my chain. Read the Bible yourself for it clearly says there is "no difference," and that's what it means.

[malakhi]

Yes, are you saying that YHWH could not become incarnate if He wanted to?

Can God do literally anything? Can He make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it? Can He make the infinite finite?

Perhaps you can explain how God, an infinite spirit, could be incarnated in the body of a man. In what way was God present in Jesus more so than in the rest of His creation? How do you explain the many statements in the gospels where Jesus prays to the Father and says that the Father is greater than he? Then there is:

God is not a man to be capricious,
Or mortal to change His mind.
Would he speak and not act,
Promise and not fulfill? (Numbers 23:19)

Who could Moses be talking about?

Did God raise up only one prophet?

[ksen]

angelo knows hes talking about Jesus, hes just too hardheaded to admit it, I was wishing you were coming to the get together, we could of double teamed him there, and if that didn't work, we could of kidnaped him and took him out to the deep woods were no one could here him scream! :)

The part that really scares me is that if there are people on this thread who have clearly heard the Gospel message and have not accepted Jesus as their Saviour they will be out of luck should the Rapture occur.

II Thess 2:
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

I wish I could make it too. My bosses let me leave already for three weeks out of the year to attend seminary so I do not take any other vacations, other than the occasional day or half-day.

Should you get angelo into the woods, try not to leave any marks on him. ;^)

-Kevin

[malakhi]

angelo knows hes talking about Jesus, hes just too hardheaded to admit it

No, Mack, I know nothing of the sort. I am not being hardheaded. I sincerely do not believe it.

and if that didn't work, we could of kidnaped him and took him out to the deep woods were no one could here him scream! :)

Hah! You may try, but my ninja reflexes would save me. Besides, you've got a few years on me, Mack. Better get into training now if you think you're gonna catch me! ;o)