The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[JHavard]

Wasn't the whole temple carved with holy imagery? I'm no expert on temple worship, but it certainly seems like God instructed the Israelites to make religious art a part of their worship.

That’s the first time I have heard that suggested, My Chumash says that Exo 20:3 under "likeness". This verse prohibits not only the worship, but the manufacturer of idols. A carved image is a three-dimensional, accurate representation of something, while a “likeness” is a symbolic image, which may be either sculpted, drawn, or produced in any other way. (R'Hirsch).

So I doubt that the Jews sit around and speculate if they may be able to commit Idolatry in a way that God hadn’t thought about, after the way they seem to go to extremes on everything God told them to do or not to do.

I don't mean to say that the Israelites "worshipped" the images. But I don't think that I worship the images in my Church either.

Of course you don’t, but then when Israel made a golden calf and worshipped it, they told themselves that it represented the god’s that brought them out of Egypt, meaning they tried to put an image to the Creator God, and if I remember correctly, He voiced strong disapproval.

Exo 32:4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!''

For a religion that goes to such extremes on so many things that God or Christ never told you to do, why would you take a wait and see attitude on something so clearly identified as sin in both the 1st and 2nd Commandment.

Do you think God will disapprove of the NC’s who didn’t take a chance on the exact interpretation of what is an idol, or an image was?

JH.

[american colleen]

"Even they call themselves Unitarian Universalists. I do; however, consider myself to be a member of theUniversal Church. At one time this was called the catholic Church, then a bunch of bullies came along, changed the word to a noun, capatalized it, and appropriated it for their own purposes. I do wish they would be honest enough to qualify it with Roman so innocent people wouldn't be fooled."

So I guess St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp of Smyrna were bullies? Their writings (@ 150 or so AD) were the first we have in Christian writings referring to the Church as the "Catholic" Church. I guess the Council of Nicaea was wrong as well? Of course, I am talking about the Nicaean Creed which states "I believe in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church"... would you be happier if we adopted the name "the Universal Church" instead of "the Catholic Church" - I would say that this is a matter of semantics.

We do not (outside of TNS) call ourselves "Roman" Catholics - that is a newish name introduced by the Anglican Church in order to support the "branch theory" of the Church, ie., the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Nicaean Creed was supposed to consist of three major branches, the Anglican, the Orthodox and the so-called Roman Catholic. For clarification, if you use the word "Roman" in conjunction with anything in the Catholic Church, it denotes the Diocese of Rome only - otherwise we would be excluding the Byzantine, Chaldean, Maronite or other Oriental rites which are within the Catholic Church.

cath·o·lic Pronunciation Key (kth-lk, kthlk) adj.

Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American). Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).

Catholic
Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

n. Catholic
A member of a Catholic church, especially a Roman Catholic.

[Middle English catholik, universally accepted, from Old French catholique, from Latin catholicus, universal, from Greek katholikos, from katholou, in general : kat-, kata-, down, along, according to; see cata- + holou(from neuter genitive of holos, whole. See sol- in Indo-European Roots).]

ca·tholi·cal·ly (k-thlk-l) adv.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

[OLD REGGIE]

Here is my reply to the first part. You have sent me off on a wild goose chase looking at your "proof". When you copy these guys why don't you check their references to determine if they are real or just a bunch of Bible references listed to provide additional "smoke". I have read each listing and will reply in a while.

And let us put the verse in context, shall we?

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

There's your context for you. Pray for, there is no to Mary/Saints there, is there? There is one mediator; one!. There is the context.

[JHavard]

I won't speak for the RC's, but this is completely abhorant from the Orthodox understanding. All God's servants work for and help all mankind. Those servants in this world and the next. In the Orthodox liturgy, we pray for the good of "all mankind." The saints continue to pray for the good of "all mankind" in heaven.

Now remember, even your religion says that it believes in scripture first, then traditions, so show me something in the scripture that you hang that theory on.

You are assuming all the saints are conscious and aware of everything that goes on here, when they haven't even been resurrected yet.

Jn 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
V-24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Even Martha understood this, and Jesus didn't correct her either.

Wouldn't you have thought, that somewhere in the Bible, there would have been some record of someone praying to or asking for a blessing or some kind of help from one of the fathers such as Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, or Moses or David or anyone who had died, to help them in some way?

If God is upset at me because I didn't take advantage of this special offer of the dead helping me, I'm sure he'll show me the scripture to support it before he condemns me for it. JH

[american colleen]

There's your context for you. Pray for, there is no to Mary/Saints there, is there? There is one mediator; one!. There is the context.

Sorry Reg, we are part of the body of faithful who comprise the Catholic (or, more to your liking, the Universal) Church. We are divided into three parts: the Church Triumphant (souls in heaven), the Church Suffering (souls in purgatory) and the Church Militant (faithful on earth).

I do not see any difference in what I believe and in what NCs believe when they pray for each other and ask others to pray to God in their behalf - I see my departed brothers in Christ as only departed from this earth, not departed from Christ.

Now I know someone will trot out the Biblical passage from Deuteronomy regarding "necromancy" - and I'd say that there is quite a bit of a difference between holding a seance and asking a departed brother in Christ to pray for us.

[american colleen]

"There's your context for you. Pray for, there is no to Mary/Saints there, is there? There is one mediator; one!."

OK, so the next time someone asks for your prayers to God on their behalf, you should tell them to go and pray to God themselves, you cannot be the mediator for them.

[OLD REGGIE]

I have read every one of your Biblical "proofs" of the efficacy of praying TO the Saints for anything. They come up empty, zip, nada. Not once it it called for to pray to any person except the Lord. Read them and tell me differently.

I have printed a few for example:

Ephesians 6:
18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
19 and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,

Romans 15:
30 I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me
in your prayers to God on my behalf,

1 Thessalonians 5:
25 Brethren, pray for us.

2 Thessalonians 3
1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph, as it did among you,

Remember, Paul was writing to real live people. He was asking them for help with prayer. No praying to Mary/Saints. Never, never, never. How could it be any clearer.
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Your apologist even snuck a reading from the Apocrypha in there. To prove what?

Tobit

"Tobit, a devout and wealthy Israelite living among the captives deported to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C., suffers severe reverses and is finally blinded. Because of his misfortunes he begs the Lord to let him die. But recalling the large sum he had formerly deposited in far-off Media, he sends his son Tobiah there to bring back the money. In Media, at this same time, a young woman, Sarah, also prays for death, because she has lost seven husbands, each killed in turn on his wedding night by the demon Asmodeus. God hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah, and sends the angel Raphael in disguise to aid them both."

Even here the prayers are to God. Not to a Saint. Not to an Angel. What is your apologist attempting to prove here?
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Tobit 12:
5 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.

Now you know I don't accept the Apocrypha, but, even this "proof" shows the prayers to God. All your apologists fail to show that any prayers to any but the Lord are acceptable. Just because they tell you it is ok and throw out a bunch of Scripture references means nothing. You must check up on these people. They have an agenda and it might not be to your benefit.

If Fat Teddy makes a speech do you hang on his every word and believe everything he says? If these people weren't professional apologists they would be politicians. Same thing!

[american colleen]

"Remember, Paul was writing to real live people. He was asking them for help with prayer. No praying to Mary/Saints. Never, never, never. How could it be any clearer. "

Yes, Paul was writing to real live people asking them to pray for him - AND??? I'd say it is pretty hard for him to write to dead people.

As you stated in your previous posts, if you believe that there is no mediator between man and God, then you should believe that St. Paul was wrong in asking for prayers from anyone. Now, I believe that there is no mediator between God and man, but I believe that we can and should ask others to pray for us - meaning for them to add our intentions to God when they pray to Him. Is that asking someone to be a mediator?

Since St. Paul says that the Church is Christ's body - He is the Head, we are his members and we are members of one another. Isn't our physical death only a passage into the "fullness of life" with God in Heaven? Does death separate us from God? Don't we belong to God in this life and the next? Hasn't death brought the Saints closer to God? Has death separated the Saints from us? How can it when we are all members of Christ's body?

I think of the Saints as "prayer partners". The faithful who have gone before us are just as much a part of the Body of Christ as our living friends and relatives. We are all the Communion of Saints.

[OLD REGGIE]

So I guess St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp of Smyrna were bullies? Their writings (@ 150 or so AD) were the first we have in Christian writings referring to the Church as the "Catholic" Church. I guess the Council of Nicaea was wrong as well? Of course, I am talking about the Nicaean Creed which states "I believe in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church"... would you be happier if we adopted the name "the Universal Church" instead of "the Catholic Church" - I would say that this is a matter of semantics.

Ask your expert when the adjective (small "c") became a noun (capital "C"). (Hint - The capital "C" is revisionist history.)

The following is the Apostles Creed from the United Church of Christ. (A rather typical old line Protestant Church.) The Apostles Creed is, give a word or two here and there, identical throughout the Christian Churches).

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

(You may be certain the word "catholic" is not the same as "Catholic" to the entire Christian world. Unfortunately, our RC friends "appropriated" the word for their own purposes).

[RobbyS]

Plant and forget 'em, right? Or do you belong to that school that says they shall live as long as we cherish our memories of them ?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

HE IS TALKING ABOUT

DEAD

people. You can't ask dead people to pray for you, saints or not. There is a big difference in asking a living saint to pray for you vs. a dead one.

Becky

[american colleen]

If Fat Teddy makes a speech do you hang on his every word and believe everything he says? If these people weren't professional apologists they would be politicians. Same thing!

Reggie, to you, everyone that is a Catholic is a professional apologist. Sorry, one of the marks of the Catholic Church is the unity of her teaching. As Catholics, we all believe the same thing, therefore, I say nothing different than any other Catholic who adheres to Church teaching.

I'll anticipate your rejoinder to me - not everyone who is a Catholic believes what the Church teaches - right? And then I would say that they are not Catholic, they just call themselves by that name. Like Fat Teddy.

And I just had a thought: I would call you a professional Catholic antagonist.

[OLD REGGIE]

OK, so the next time someone asks for your prayers to God on their behalf, you should tell them to go and pray to God themselves, you cannot be the mediator for them.

When I used to be stubborn, obstinate, and refuse to listen, my grandfather would say, "you're as thick as a haddock".

PLEASE PAY ATTENTION: I'M NOT DEAD!!!! yet.

Did you even bother reading the Scriptural passages I gave you where Paul is asking live people to pray with and for him?

[american colleen]

Are the Saints separated from God when they die?

Again, we are all the "Body of Christ" whether living or dead.

I'll repost what I wrote to Reggie to explain what I believe.

Since St. Paul says that the Church is Christ's body - He is the Head, we are his members and we are members of one another. Isn't our physical death only a passage into the "fullness of life" with God in Heaven? Does death separate us from God? Don't we belong to God in this life and the next? Hasn't death brought the Saints closer to God? Has death separated the Saints from us? How can it when we are all members of Christ's body?

I think of the Saints as "prayer partners". The faithful who have gone before us are just as much a part of the Body of Christ as our living friends and relatives. We are all the Communion of Saints.

[american colleen]

You can't ask dead people to pray for you, saints or not. There is a big difference in asking a living saint to pray for you vs. a dead one.

Where is that in the Bible?

[OLD REGGIE]

As you stated in your previous posts, if you believe that there is no mediator between man and God, then you should believe that St. Paul was wrong in asking for prayers from anyone. Now, I believe that there is no mediator between God and man, but I believe that we can and should ask others to pray for us - meaning for them to add our intentions to God when they pray to Him. Is that asking someone to be a mediator?

Please, please, please. It is not important what I believe. Scripture is plain. There is only mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

No one has said we can't ask for, and accept, prayers from others to the Lord on our or someone else's behalf. That is fine. We are asking for help with prayers from the living.

Your prayers TO any one but the Lord are wasted. Wasted! Go ahead. Pray to your cat. It probably won't do any harm.

[OLD REGGIE]

Plant and forget 'em, right? Or do you belong to that school that says they shall live as long as we cherish our memories of them ?

There is nothing you or I are going to do which will change what will happen. My mother and father are dead. My memories keep them alive in my mind only, not in reality. It is now in the Lord's hands.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

De. 18:10-11 Necromancer from a Greek word meaning to divine with the dead; one who tries to communicate with the dead, which is forbidden by God.

Rev. 19:10

Rev. 22:8-9

Becky

[RobbyS]

1 Thessalonians 5: 25 Brethren, pray for us.

What about this one From Litany of St. Joseph: Lord have mercy on us
Christ have mercy on us
Lord have mercy on us
God the son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us
God the Holy Ghost, have mervy on us
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us
Holy Mary, pray for us
Holy Joseph, pray for us

Get the picture. But, I forgot, Mary and Jpseh are too busy praising God to have time for us poor sinners. OR they are asleep and/or unconscious. Whatever.

[OLD REGGIE]

And I just had a thought: I would call you a professional Catholic antagonist.

You might be right. I am an antagonist to an extent. The entire list of "Scriptural Proofs" you gave me were off the point. I know you didn't choose them. You merely accepted the list from the Apologist, innocently assuming they buttressed his argument. I read his damn list. They didn't. They just took up space. I knew in advance there could be no Scripture which would justify praying to Mary/Saints (with the exception of an obscure passage from the Apocrypha). I knew this because I have read the Bible. Have you? Have you ever seen one (one would be sufficient) indication that we should/could pray to the Saints/Mary? I can only assume you didn't read them. Right?