The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Wordsmith]

Now remember, even your religion says that it believes in scripture first, then traditions

This is not true. Orthodoxy believes that the ONLY basis for our faith is the revelation of God preserved in Holy Tradition. Scripture is the first and greatest aspect of this Tradition. But we believe it is always incorrect to speak of Scripture "vs." Tradition.

You are assuming all the saints are conscious and aware of everything that goes on here, when they haven't even been resurrected yet.

Eschatology is not an aspect of theology that I'm particularly fluent in, but I do know the basics of the Orthodox understanding. Orthodox belief is that a particular judgement follows immediately after our physical death, and that the general judgement comes with the Second Coming.

"Every good and God-beloved soul ... when it has been released by death from the body with which it was united ... immediately experiences the joy and pleasures which it shall enjoy in full measure in the future ... and though immediately after death the enjoyment is small, after, when it shall again receive its body at the resurrection of the dead, it shall enjoy blessings in perfect measure." - St. Gregory the Theologian, +390 AD

At the same time, we believe that the souls of the righteous departed are not just "hanging around." We don't believe in ghosts. They are with God.

"Nor indeed is it possible for a soul, once separated from it's body, to wander here anymore. For the souls of the righteous are in the hands of God ... and the souls, also of sinners, are straightaway led away hence ... and it cannot be that a soul, when it has gone out of the body may wander here." - St. John Chrysostom, +450

The living communion of the saints is founded in part on the Scriptural teaching of everlasting life. See my last post to Becky for a couple of passages I believe are relevant. The saints are those that have everlasting life. Everlasting life, by definition, is life that doesn't end.

[american colleen]

No, I was antagonized and became spiteful.

OK, I like you again ;-)

[OLD REGGIE]

(Reggie) Did you even bother reading the Scriptural passages I gave you where Paul is asking live people to pray with and for him?

Yes, I did read them thank you. And I ask you how could he have written a letter asking the Saints in Heaven with God to pray for him?

Where? I don't believe this is in my Bible.

I did find one verse where Paul mentions Saints and Prayer:

Ephesians 6:18
Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

Please show me yours.

[Wordsmith]

Raise what up?

Raise up the physical body and reunite it with the eternally alive soul.

[Wordsmith]

My folks used to have a Douay-Rheims but I have no idea what happened to it.

What is the D-R anyway? Is it an official Catholic translation? The Orthodox are working on an official translation as well, but I think it's going to be a few years until it's ready.

One wonderful feature of the internet is to have many versions on hand simultaneously. I sometimes find myself comparing passages from three or four versions at times.

Agreed. I've just started doing this recently. It's also great for pulling together descriptions of the same event in multiple Gospels. I'd never looked at the three Transfiguration stories side by side before yesterday. Neat stuff.

[OLD REGGIE]

What is the D-R anyway? Is it an official Catholic translation? The Orthodox are working on an official translation as well, but I think it's going to be a few years until it's ready.

The Douay-Rheims was the English language translation from the Latin Vulgate. I don't know what position it holds in the RCC at the present time. I do know the Catholic approved RSV and the NAB (New American Bible) are now widely use in the RCC. It is probably wise to ask a knowledgeable RC this question.

[nate4one]

The Scriptures clearly state that God’s servants DON’T DIE. They are dead in the flesh, but still alive. Fleshly death is nothing. Those who are Christ’s DO NOT die. They are NOT DEAD, they are ALIVE. Everlasting life DOESN’T END. That’s why it’s called EVERLASTING.

And again, read 1 Cor 15:51-57, Revelation 20 and Daniel 12.

No one recieves their eternal life until Christ's return. If He has not returned, you are wrong and they are dead in the ground (asleep).

If He has returned, they are alive and with Him. But you still have no argument. Because even Christ taught us to pray to the Father direct in His name, not to Himself. So praying to a saint is not even an option nor entertained by the Father.

[nate4one]

Raise up the physical body and reunite it with the eternally alive soul.

This is absolutely untrue not found in scripture. Actually the opposite is found!

1Co 15:35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 1Co 15:36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 1Co 15:37 d what you sow is not the body which is to be,

IT IS NOT YOUR FLESH BODY THAT WILL RAISE!!!

but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 1Co 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

THE BODY YOU HAVE NOW WILL NOT RISE!!
It is a shell, a seed that dies and then the spiritual body which is clothing this mortal body will go to be with the Lord. (And this only after the return of Christ 1 Cor 15:51-57!!).

[Uri’el-2012]

To:president@whitehouse.gov

From: XeniaSt

Subject: Thank you for standing with Israel

Brother George:

Thank you for standing with Israel in it's "war on terrorism".

Tehillim 122:6
Pray for shalom in Yerushalayim; may those who love you prosper.

Chuck
XeniaSt
Denver Colorado

[american colleen]

Reggie, can we both agree that St. Paul is in Heaven with God?

If we do agree here, then why would it have been OK for me to ask St. Paul to pray for me if I was his contemporary, but not OK for me to ask him to pray for me 1900 years later?

Now, let me make this clear: If I ask a Saint to pray for me, I am asking him to unite his prayers to God with mine - just the same as I might ask you. I do not worship or put on par ANYTHING or ANYONE with God.

One of my grandfathers was about the most religious, God loving person I ever knew. This man talked the talk and walked the walk, God rest his soul. I would never pray to him - just to make that clear.

The dang family is calling for supper... I'll check back later.

[OLD REGGIE]

Regarding the Revelation passages you sited. Who is falling at anyone's feet? What does this have to do with anything? Praying to and Worshipping are two entirely different things. If you want to persist in the erroneous belief that we Catholics worship statues, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saints, and everything else under the sun, then I can't do anything about that. But it is wrong and both you and I are answerable to God, and not each other.

I don't know about you, but I believe, in Scripture when one "falls down at his feet" it is to worship "whomever", be it an Angel, an Apostle, or a statue.

Acts 10:
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

What do you think Peter was telling this man about falling and/or prostrating yourself at any mans feet? Think about this with regard to the present hierarchy of the RCC.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 19:
10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:
8 I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me;
9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

There are parts of Revelation which are very confusing but not these two verses.

(The angel to John). "You must not do that!"
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[nate4one]

Didn't you read todays papers?

Brother George is not standing with them as you might like. He told Sharon that he had better back out of the West Bank.
This war on terror is one sided. But tell me this,
Do Palestinians have any gripe at all? terroroism is bad, but aren't the Palestinians the modern day American Indians of old? Being pushed out of the land they had for many years before Israels resurgeance?

[Wordsmith]

Nate - No one recieves their eternal life until Christ's return.

The Apostle John - 1Jo 5:13 - ...ye have eternal life...

I'll stick with John.

[Iowegian]

Here's a thread you may be interested in since it discusses the same issues you have been in the last few days.

Evangelicals and Jews Together - An Unlikely Alliance

[nate4one]

Yes, those who were with Christ at His resurrection. But you cannot negate John 14:3, i Cor 15, Daniel 12:13, Revelation 20, etc, just because God chose to bring some up early with Christ at His resurrection!!. Peter would not even be there until the return (John13:36-John 14:3) Read it!

[Wordsmith]

WS - Raise up the physical body and reunite it with the eternally alive soul.

Nate - This is absolutely untrue not found in scripture.

OK, I was pretty vague and as I said eschatology is not my strong suit. I probably should have said "unite" rather than "reunite" because you are right in that the body we will be given is different from the body we have now. I believe that the body will be a physical, as in tangible, body, although not "flesh." It will have substance.

[Uri’el-2012]

Didn't you read todays(sic) papers?

No. I gave up reading newspapers years ago.

Brother George is not standing with them as you might like. He told Sharon that he had better back out of the West Bank.
This war on terror is one sided. But tell me this,
Do Palestinians have any gripe at all? terroroism(sic) is bad, but aren't the Palestinians the modern day American Indians of old? Being
pushed out of the land they had for many years before Israels(sic) resurgeance(sic)?

1812 posted on 4/7/02 4:08 PM Mountain by nate4one

Your preterism blinds you to the Holy Word of G-d !

I pray to you, Abba, Father , Creator of the universe

take Nate under your wings

Draw them near to your Son, Y'shua haMashiach

and provide the Ru'akh haKodesh to remove the scales from his eyes

to see and hear Your Holy Word ;

I pray this in the Name of Your Son, Jesus the Christ

xeni>a, <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[nate4one]

I'll stick with John.

Taken in context with the rest of scripture, that "eternal life" was not awarded until the return of Christ and the resurrection!
Unless the Bible does contradict itself!!!!

[nate4one]

Well, I geuss the Jews have every right to commit whatever atrocities they choose because of your distorted view of Zionist Christianity.

Wake up to your inheritance. Freedom in Christ, not Jerusalem!