The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[IMRight]

That he did it in A.D. 390-405,

The Vulgate was "commissioned" in 382 and delivered (in it's first form) in 384. It was the later re-work of the OT from the Hebrew (instead of the Septuagint Greek) that took until 405 (or so). :)

[OLD REGGIE]

One of the more awkward (for Catholics) is Luke 1:28. The source of the beginning of the "Hail Mary", it says in the DR and RSV(C) Hail, Full of Grace. In the RSV(P) and the KJV it is rendered as Hail, highly favored one of the Lord.

Strange, The DR is supposed to be a "faithful" copy of the Latin Vulgate yet it is the only version which (to my knowledge) translates to "Full of Grace".

Latin Vulgate Luke 1:28

28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

And, the NAB
28 And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

I went to several Catholic web sites and was always referred to an online RSV or RSV with Apocrypha. Of course Luke 1:28 is translated as follows:

28 And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

Are you aware of any online version of the RSV(C)? (I see them for sale but am too cheap to purchase on to find a word or difference here and there).

[american colleen]

Lassie:
The more correct question would be why did G-d have His Word written in the most precise language in the world (koine Greek)?

Laddie,

I would think that the early Christians were largely Greek speaking.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>One day you will realize you are believing a counter-Reformation Jesuit lie.

Great response to scripture and greek translation, with context proving you wrong.
I guess that was all you had left though in the face of truth!!

1858 posted on 4/7/02 8:13 PM Mountain by nate4one

Sorry Nate I will no longer respond to your Jesuitical heresy.

I do not consider this a debate between you and me.

Your Pride in declaring yourself a winner is just that: a sin.

I pray G-d, He will have the Ru'akh haKodesh remove the scales from your eyes.

Until then I will no longer respond to your posts.

xeni>a, <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[ventana]

Thanks. I now have 1 more reason to question this little book I'm holding. It also mentions an earlier compilation, dating from A.D. 150, called the Vetus Italia.

People in Rome din't speak generally Latin until the 4th Century?

[OLD REGGIE]

or that people in Ancient Rome spoke Latin?

The above is not the same as:

No, when the Bible was translated into Latin (the Vulgate) in A.D.390 It was precisely so the common man could read it. Latin was the common (vulgar) language of the day.

Are you now saying the Bible was translated into Latin so only the people in Rome could read it? Are you even saying Latin was the prevalent language in the known (Christian) world?

[IMRight]

People in Rome din't speak generally Latin until the 4th Century?

That's not really it. They certainly did speak Latin. There were several Latin translation going back to the second century or before. Just nothing that was authoritative enough to be considered "official". The one you cited is probably one of them.

[OLD REGGIE]

What I see is a man who is trying to find the one religion that meets all his criteria with that man being his own authority.

You are not seeing correctly. I am very comfortable with my belief and am not searching. I am a member of the Universal Church. There are those who need a baby sitter and those who don't. I don't.

[ventana]

Pope Damasus comissioned it. There was already a Greek Version. It was the intent of the Church to make it accessible to those who did not speak Greek.

[american colleen]

I am a member of the Universal Church. There are those who need a baby sitter and those who don't. I don't.

What is the Universal Church? Didn't you just tell me the other day that you were not a member of the Universalist Unitarian Church?

Well, I wouldn't call it needing a babysitter... I would call it knowing my human limitations and knowing that I do not want to be and I am not capable of being my own ultimate authority in spiritual matters. I'll go with 2000 years of Tradition from the teaching Church that Christ left us.

[IMRight]

Are you now saying the Bible was translated into Latin so only the people in Rome could read it? Are you even saying Latin was the prevalent language in the known (Christian) world?

See the link I posted for Jim above. Latin was the prevalent language in the known world (not necessarily in the Christian world). The Roman empire controlled the majority of the "civilized" (perhaps a stretch in their case) world at the time. Latin cetainly was the common tongue for the large part of the people that the church in Rome was trying to reach (the eastern Bishoprics would probably be fine with Greek for some time later). Regardless of other opinion, however, it can't really be argued that the church in Rome translated the Scriptures into Latin so that only the "educated few" would have been able to undersand them. Greek would have sufficed if that were the case.

Here is the only online Catholic RSV that I could find. At least I presume it's Catholic. I'm not sure what distinctions there are other than the Apocrapha etc. I wasn't aware that there were individual NT words that were translated for "dispute" situations. Lk 1:28 certainly seems to be the way you posted it. Hope it helps.

[OLD REGGIE]

I am not capable of being my own ultimate authority in spiritual matters.

Who or what is if not you? Is it any other person on this earth?

If you aren't happy with me being a member of the Universal Church, how about the "Church Universal"? How about the catholic (small "c") Church? Do you need a name?

[american colleen]

Who or what is if not you? Is it any other person on this earth?

You ignored my last line obviously. I told you, I choose the 2000 year old teaching Church left on earth by Christ.

If you aren't happy with me being a member of the Universal Church, how about the "Church Universal"? How about the catholic (small "c") Church? Do you need a name?

Nice spinning job. Like I said - "a non-denominational denomination of one."

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>Lassie:
XS>The more correct question would be why did G-d have His Word written in the most precise language in the world XS>(koine Greek)?

ac>Laddie,

ac>I would think that the early Christians were largely Greek speaking.

1863 posted on 4/7/02 8:28 PM Mountain by american colleen

Perhaps some research will reveal to you that the Tanach had already been translated into koine Greek
by seventy Scholars before Y'shua was born.
The Jews who followed the Rebbe Y'shua were Hellenistic. He quoted from the Septuagint.

Septuagint is supposed to have been made about fifty or sixty years after
Alexander’s conquests. This is the first translation that ever was made of
the Scriptures that we have any credible account of. The canon of the Old
Testament had been completed by the prophet Malachi but about a
hundred and twenty years before in its original. Hitherto the Scriptures
had remained locked up among the Jews in the Hebrew tongue, which was
understood by no other nation; but now it was translated into a language
that was commonly understood by the nations of the world.

Edwards - The Works of Edwards Vol. 4
Jonathan Edwards

It is now clear that the Greek of the New Testament is not a
jargon nor a patois. In all essential respects it is just the vernacular [koine]
of the 1st century AD, the lingua franca of the Greek-Roman empire, the
legacy of Alexander the Great’s conquest of the East. This world-speech
was at bottom the late Attic vernacular with dialectical and provincial
influences. It was not a decaying tongue, but a virile speech admirably
adapted to the service of the many peoples of the time.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Vol. 7 - L-Oz
James Orr

Out of this babel of
Greek dialects there finally arose a normal koine or “common language.”
By the conquests of Alexander and the Hellenistic sympathies of the
Diadochi this common Greek language became the lingua franca of
antiquity. Greek was known in Northern India, at the Parthian court, and
on the distant shores of the Euxine (Black Sea). The native land of the
gospel was surrounded on all sides by Greek civilization. Greek culture and
language penetrated into the midst of the obstinate home-keeping
Palestinian Jews.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Vol. 9 - R-Syzygus

Or could it be that koine is more precise than Latin or English and hence the
language that the Holy Spirit chose to breath into the writers.

or

The people of the Book had already revealed the Word to the gentiles.

or

the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in koine Greek.

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[RobbyS]

I don't think you are reading this in the light of the actual questions that Paul was addressing: What about those who died(fell asleep) before Christ came again? Were they to be less than those living at that time? I think we can safely assume that Paul never knew that Christ would never come before Paul died, much less that He would not have come after nearly two millenia. That's an awfully long sleep!

[ventana]

Thanks for the link. Yep, it's the Catholic version. Wordsmith, here's another one: RSV

v.

[RobbyS]

It is my understanding that at the time Jerome translated the Bible into Latin, most Christians were Greek-speakers. But the translation was necessary because Latin was the common language of the Empire: Hence "vulgate."

[american colleen]

Yikes! Thanks a lot for the information. I had thought we were only discussing the NT, which is why I gave the answer that I did.

Goodnight!

[IMRight]

It is my understanding that at the time Jerome translated the Bible into Latin, most Christians were Greek-speakers. But the translation was necessary because Latin was the common language of the Empire: Hence "vulgate."

I don't have any problem with that. I would say that the late 4th century was about the time that Latin overtook Greek as the common language. It certainly was the language that the Church in Rome would need to reach the citizens of the Empire.

[RobbyS]

Latin was the language of law and administration. It remained so after the capital was moved to Constantinople. Even before that it has become the language speken throughout the West. Part of the problem between Rome and Constantinope was that by the year 600, Rome really didn't understand Greek, and Constantinople really didn't understand Latin. Much miscommunication followed.