The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[OLD REGGIE]

P Harvey 3:18 And John saith unto the angel, what sayest thou, canst thou now readeth my mind? I fellest down, not to worshipest thou, but because I trippest on thine rope which girdest thy loins, and besides that it was just a curtsy, not a fallest down.

Apocrypha II

[ventana]

The OT translation for the first time into english was published in Douay, Flanders in 1609, NT translated into english in Rheims FR. in 1582 The translations were from the Latin Vulgate, which was in turn a translation by St. Jerome of the Greek Septuganet (390-405). It has similar linguistic style as the KJV (Thine, thou).

It was the Catholic Bible until 1941 when the Revised Standard Version and then later the New American Bible came along with more "accessible" modern language.

The two subsequent versions were ecumenical excercises. The First has Catholic and Protestant versions (with and without deuterocanonical/apocraphal texts) the second while Catholic only, was prepared with the assistance of Protestant sources. Troubling to many, including myself, is that many passages in the Bible have shifted meanings in the later translations. One of the more awkward (for Catholics) is Luke 1:28. The source of the beginning of the "Hail Mary", it says in the DR and RSV(C) Hail, Full of Grace. In the RSV(P) and the KJV it is rendered as Hail, highly favored one of the Lord. The RSV(P) print version does footnote this out as "some ancient sources read full of grace". This changes the meaning from what is virtually a title to a mere quality, and since the same greek is translated in Ephesians 1:6 as Grace, it is hard to see this "unweighting" of the Luke 1:28 usage as other than political, and it is odd-to me-that the Catholics "fell for it".

This is one of a number of passages in both the OT and NT that seem wrongly re-translated to those who use the DR.

A nice online version is available (with lovely Orthodox(y) Icons)

Douay Rheims Online

A very good massively interactive online bible (Protestant) is The Blue Letter Bible What are your favorite sources?

v.

[JHavard]

." Hello! What was the most universal language of the time? Originally the Bible was in Greek, then translated to Latin because that was the most popularly understood language.

Among what class of people, and how long did it stay a universal language?

I spent hours reading the Catholic history on the use of Latin at that time in history, and they never tied them selves down by using dates, and it was so convoluted there was no way you could give any definites as far as when it started and when it ended, but Greek was the common language at the time, and not Latin.

If you can show otherwise, with the factual dates, I'll be glad to re-read it.

JH

[OLD REGGIE]

I would posit that Tradition is the original basis for your faith as well. The Church had to weed through false and true writings to compose the Bible. This took about 350 or so years. Given the position of Protestants, there must have been no Christian instruction from after the death of the Apostles until the Bible was completed.

Yes, Tradition which was heard and taught by the Apostles. This is the end date. NO NEW TRADITION. IOW only Scriptural Tradition.

Invented Tradition: (Extra-Scriptural)

Immaculate Conception
Perpetual Virginity
Bodily Assumption
Papal Infallability.

[Uri’el-2012]

Thank You!

(Funny how scripture interprets itself only when YOU see fit.)

Again, it is the dispensationalist who calls Christ the liar.

Geneav is only used when referring to the current generation.

gennema is used when referring to a bloodline or nation or race!! That is consistant(sic) in EVERY use of these words!!

1837 posted on 4/7/02 6:09 PM Mountain by nate4one

How do you read :

NIV Matthew 12:39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
NIV Hebrews 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'
NIV Acts 13:36 "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.

How do you read Matthew 24:32 through 24:35.

What is the time of the generation spoken of therein.

The generation in question is when the fig tree puts forth leaves and summer is near.

What is the symbolism of the fig tree ?

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character
than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with
great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if
what Paul said was true.

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[OLD REGGIE]

What was the most universal language of the time? Originally the Bible was in Greek, then translated to Latin because that was the most popularly understood language.

Say that again??????????????????????

[ventana]

No, when the Bible was translated into Latin (the Vulgate) in A.D.390 It was precisely so the common man could read it. Latin was the common (vulgar) language of the day.

[Uri’el-2012]

JHavard;american colleen;OLD REGGIE;ventana

Hello! What was the most universal language of the time?
Originally the Bible was in Greek, then translated to Latin because that was the most popularly understood language.

JH>Is that pretty well how it happened? JH

That would be a "no".

1838 posted on 4/7/02 6:15 PM Mountain by american colleen

Lassie:

The more correct question would be why did G-d have His Word
written in the most precise language in the world (koine Greek)?

Tehillim (Psalm) 119:105 Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[Wordsmith]

What are your favorite sources?

Thanks V! I'll check out the online D-R. Online, I've only used crosswalk.com, which has a searchable database of most translations.

My personal Bible is KJV. But I read to my kids from the Orthodox Study Bible, which uses the NKJV text but also provides extensive verse-by-verse commentary. It only includes the NT and Psalter though.

The Orthodox Church mostly recommends the RSV, KJV, and NKJV. We use the RSV in Liturgy. The Orthodox are currently working on their own English translation. The biggest problem with the 3 I mentioned, as I understand it, is that they are based on the Hebrew OT instead of the Greek Septuagint. I've never heard what Orthodox leaders think of the D-R or the NAB. I'll have to look in to it.

[nate4one]

Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
NIV Matthew 12:39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation [geneav] asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet JonahBR>
Did you ignore the preceeding verse? It was His contemporaries who asked for the sign!!
NIV Hebrews 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'

Again the preceeding verse gave you the 40 year clue. He said that is why He was angry with that generation.
NIV Acts 13:36 "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.
David served his purpose for God in his own (contemporaries) generation/geneav.

Thanks for letting me prove my point. There is NOT ONE place geneav is used as a "race" or "nation". That word is Gennema (or gennehma). NOT GENEAV.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see allthese thingsow that it is near, even at the doors.

He is saying the signe are the key for them to know when it is coming.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation [geneav] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

He followed it as He always did as in Matt16:28, Luke 21:32, Matt 23:36, etc.
He followed it, so they would make no mistake, that their generation, geneav, would see it. Him using geneav, not gennehma, is how we can know this to be true!!!

And they did NOT mistake it.

Heb 1:1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

The writer differentiated the times, the times of the prophets and hie present time, the last days!

1Jo 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour

John knew it too!

[JHavard]

No, when the Bible was translated into Latin (the Vulgate) in A.D.390 It was precisely so the common man could read it. Latin was the common (vulgar) language of the day.

I understand that's what you've been taught, but I don't believe it, so prove it to me. JH

[Uri’el-2012]

One day you will realize you are believing a counter-Reformation Jesuit lie.

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[american colleen]

Is prostrating yourself at a persons feet, a statues feet, anythings feet, "kneeling" to you?

No - when do Catholics prostrate ourselves at a person's feet, a statue's feet or anything's feet? Sources please.

There are many things where the RCC agrees with me. (It is a two way street you know). Where we part ways is where the RCC departs from Scripture. Pretty simple isn't it.

Yes, it is pretty simple. What I see is a man who is trying to find the one religion that meets all his criteria with that man being his own authority. So far, if I'm not mistaken, you haven't found it. You sound like you are your own religion, or; as I saw a while ago on another thread, "a non-denominational denomination of one."

[american colleen]

"One day you will realize you are believing a counter-Reformation Jesuit lie."

Now, I see that statement as a compliment... ;-)

[Uri’el-2012]

american colleen;JHavard;OLD REGGIE;ventana

Hello! What was the most universal language of the time?
Originally the Bible was in Greek, then translated to Latin because that was the most popularly understood language.

JH>Is that pretty well how it happened? JH

That would be a "no".

1838 posted on 4/7/02 6:15 PM Mountain by american colleen

Lassie:

The more correct question would be why did G-d have His Word
written in the most precise language in the world (koine Greek)?

Tehillim (Psalm) 119:105 Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.

Chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[nate4one]

Mat 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you." Mat 12:39 But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation [geneav] seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

The preceding verse clearly shows it was THOSE men asking for the sign, thus Christ calling THAT generation wicked and adulterous (hence, Babylon, harlot of the Revelation).

NIV Hebrews 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation [geneav], and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.'

The preceding verse said that he was referring to THAT 40 year generation of men. Did you read it?

NIV Acts 13:36 "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation [geneav], he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.

David impacted his own generation the way God had purposed David too.

All instances referring to the contemporary generation of the ones it referred to.

Mat 24:32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Mat 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

Just like with a fig tree, the signs would give the heads up that it was coming down!

Mat 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

As with Matthew 23:36, Luke 21:32 and Matt 16:28, He followed His passage with a time statement, so they would not mistake the generation that would experience it. That geneav. He would have used gennehma if He meant that race, nation , etc!!!

And they did not mistake it, they declared Christ correct.

Heb 1:1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

The reference to the days of the prophets shows that the writer of Hebrews days were the last days. Those days back then were the last days.

1Jo 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour.

It WAS the last hour then. For John. Not us!!

[nate4one]

One day you will realize you are believing a counter-Reformation Jesuit lie.

Great response to scripture and greek translation, with context proving you wrong.
I guess that was all you had left though in the face of truth!!

[ventana]

Sorry, I don't understand. Which is it that you don't believe?

That the Septuganit was translated into Latin,
That a man we call St. Jerome did the work,
That he did it in A.D. 390-405,
or that people in Ancient Rome spoke Latin?

v.

[IMRight]

...but instead they wrote it in Latin and told the people that only a well educated priest is qualified to read it to them. Is that pretty well how it happened? JH

Now Jim. I'm surprised at your response. You're acting like if it weren't for those darn Catholics (or whatever the 4th century church was) everyone would have had a copy of the Bible to interpret for themselves instead of some Church official. This exhibits an ignorance of how scripture got to us that I don't expect from you.

Think about how the Scriptures we have today were passed down with such reliability and accuracy (with some notable exceptions). Yes, the Holy Spirit preserved the Word, but it was done through the work of men. You might think that copying an entire bible by hand would be a daunting task that could take you many months. You would be wrong, it was actually much longer. The reason that Scripture is preserved so well is that some monk would sit and copy line by line, character by character (even including seeming superfluous marks) and then would check by the known number of times a particular word or character was repeated in the passage. Then others would recheck his work before a page could be considered copied. Each "copy" of scripture could take many man/years to complete and no individual (apart from the very richest) could ever afford a copy or even a book. In some towns their bible could be worth more than their church. So, just like with the Jews that they followed, a priest would be the person to read the Scriptures from the altar.

I understand that's what you've been taught, but I don't believe it, so prove it to me. JH

As for the Latin Vulgate... Exactly what language do you think people would be speaking throughout the Roman empire of the 4th century? Perhaps Wycliff is an acceptable source for you? -

But during the 4th century, Latin began to replace Greek as the common language. Several Latin translations, often inaccurate, leaked into circulation. The Church needed an official translation.

Pope Damascus assigned the job to Jerome, his theological advisor and perhaps the most learned man of the time. Jerome's translation, called the Latin Vulgate (meaning vulgar or common) became the Bible of the Middle Ages.

Reformation struggles
The Vulgate would outlast its purpose. As centuries passed, Latin became the language only of the highly educated. Common people could no longer understand the Church's