The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

It all went down hill tho when they got power hungry and thought themselves to be "infallible"

I think the mistake too many Christians make is to assume that the Pharisees were a solid and undivided group. In fact, there were several sects of Pharisees. The followers of Hillel favored a more lenient interpretation of the Law and were open to the idea that good works such as healing were permissible on the Sabbath. The followers of Shammai held to a very strict and rigid interpretation. The Hillelites levelled the same type of charges against the Shammaites that Jesus is recorded as making against the Pharisees. This is why I think that Jesus's diatribes against the Pharisees were really made against the Shammaites.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

But they wanted it all because it was all theirs before millions of Jewish nomads came walking in and forced their way into the region again!!

I thought God gave them the land the first time? And prophecy says he will give it to them again. Unless you've twisted scripture to mean something else. Oh wait a minute, you'd never do that.

[nate4one]

Does there exist a "preterism" thread somewhere? This stuff gets tiresome.

I post my views on praying to saints (they are alive in heaven), the transfiguration, Israel, etc but all my posts are from a preterist background, so there are those who question that portion of my response. I answer with the Word of God.

They refuse to do the same (other than nobdysfool and JohnnyM).
So I am sorry, you can glance over the nate4one posts on this subject, or you can read them and see if I am in fact using the word of God and presenting a strong case.

[newgeezer]

Thanks Reggie. I wish the language wasn't such a hangup between believers of different confessions.

Language? Hardly. This appears to be a clear difference in beliefs.

I honestly do believe that we are in the presence of the saints, and that Peter is as present to me now as he was to those people bringing their sick in to the street.

What is your basis for believing that?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

This is why I think that Jesus's diatribes against the Pharisees were really made against the Shammaites.

You're probably right. I'm aware they weren't all bad. There were good Pharisees such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathia.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I answer with the Word of God.

Your twisted interpretations of the Word of God.

[ksen]

This is the difference between me and everyone else on this thread, Paul could not have been mistaken. The fact that he taught a 1st century return, along with John and Christ Himself, is because they were not mistaken.

I don't think you've made the case yet that Paul et. al. did indeed teach a 1st century return of Christ.

BTW, thank you for your prayers for my family.

-Kevin

[DouglasKC]

Hey wonk, over on the catholic caucas thread they have just picked Mary as their patron saint of their caucas and are doing what they tell us they don't do, saying and quoting prayers to her. Go take a look see.

Interesting that Mary is referred to as "Queen of the Saints". I was doing a study last night of the word "saint" in the bible and it seems to mean mostly a believer in Christ, a member of his church.

[DouglasKC]

This is why I think that Jesus's diatribes against the Pharisees were really made against the Shammaites.
You're probably right. I'm aware they weren't all bad. There were good Pharisees such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathia.

And wasn't Paul a Pharisee??

[nate4one]

I thought God gave them the land the first time? And prophecy says he will give it to them again. Unless you've twisted scripture to mean something else. Oh wait a minute, you'd never do that.

God did once. He used them to punish the wicked in the region (unless you left out that portion).

But the regathering into the land is the real promised land, the only one God was concerned with in the New Covenant, the "heavenly Jerusalem" in Hebrews 11-12!!

God is not concerned with DIRT anymore!! We have a new covenant!!

[malakhi]

But they wanted it all because it was all theirs before millions of Jewish nomads came walking in and forced their way into the region again!!

Nate, I think the Jews have a prior claim.

That teeny, tiny speck in the middle of a sea of Islam is Israel. I think the Arabs have plenty of room without needing to take what God gave to His chosen people.

For that matter, Islam occupied Spain for several hundred years. Should Spain give the territory back? Conversely, North Africa and the Middle East were once overwhelmingly Christian, before being conquered by Islam. Should the muslims return all of that territory and go back to Arabia?

Absolutely NOT. Terrorism is weak, evil and Israel should woop it on until it stops without US interference!!...I say Israel sets ONE treaty on the table offering a state and part of Jerusalem. Just like before. If Arafat disagrees, The US backs out, insures only Iraq and Palestine are involved, and let Israel bring peace to that area for us once and for all. (Build a really big wall aroun their whole land like Jericho.)

On this, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

And wasn't Paul a Pharisee??

yes he was. Good catch.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You're probably right.

Steven don't go and tell him THAT, he will have to go out and buy new hats. :)

BigMack

[american colleen]

They been saying it for the last year that they don't pray to Mary on here, been some mighty big threads about it, and now its just like it never happened?

Huh? None except the NCs say they don't pray to Mary, we pray to Mary but tell you (again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again) that we do not worship her. Praying and worshiping are two different things.

[Havoc]

Do you really think that love is fatiguing? If the saints are with Christ, then they know what love truly means. It means giving to others. The saints in heaven are simply "passing" on to others what they have received from HIM. Is there any better way of glorifying God than to put out a helping hand for those still on earth?

Last time I looked, this particular question wasn't about love, was it. It's about work. And when I get the weekend off, I don't spend my time at work slaving away for the company. When I retire, that doesn't mean I have more time for the company. So rather than trying to dodge the question, how about answering it. Why do you expect me, when I retire from work, to spend all my time working for you instead of enjoying my rest?

[biblewonk]

So is she omnipresent? No. But can she or any other saint or angel seem to us to be acting in multiple places simultaneously? Yes.

Did you ever prove this? Scripturally that is.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

Ok, maybe we were told you pray to Mary, but don't worship her. But we have been told numerous times that the only thing you ask of Mary is to pray for you. The discussion from this weekend is clear on that, because the NC's (I hate that term too, I have stated time and again we are IFBB's, just like you don't like Papist) have been arguing about asking dead people to pray for the living is not right. Are you going to deny that too.

Now look at the above sentence copied from the prayer you posted (#4) on the catholic caucas thread. This is alot more then just asking her to pray for you, or are you going to spin this too.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Huh? None except the NCs say they don't pray to Mary, we pray to Mary but tell you (again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again) that we do not worship her. Praying and worshiping are two different things

Steven, angelo am I nuts or didn't we go through a long set of post where the catholics denied that they even prayed to Mary let alone worship her? Wish we had A SEARCH engine on the Story threads, angelo do you have a way to look back from your end?

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

BTW, I meant to add that I believe we were told you don't pray to Mary, because you don't characterize asking her to pray for you as a prayer. I disagree with this, but my above posts shows you do ask more then just her praying for you.

Becky

[american colleen]

Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace
It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

St Athanasius, Bishop and Doctor

Context!