The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[JohnnyM]

"Obedience alone as a motivation for following Christ is not the fullness of the Gospel or of our faith in Christ. Loving Jesus is the motivation for following him and walking in his Spirit. Obedience is what is required of a slave or even of a young child. But Love is what unites and moves friends who walk together on the Way that is Jesus Christ himself."

First, I want to say it is refreshing that someone is actually teaching Christ and His love for us in the pulpit rather than legalism. The church today is so focused on legalism and the do and dont's of Christianity that they forget love.

To Douglas and Havoc: Is there a difference in being obedient out of love and being obedient out of duty???

JM

[Fury]

Correction, the first laws in England under Roman Rule were written in latin. Gaelic predated Latin and still exists as a cultural language that is not dead. Britan was highly tribal until it was conquered. The which is the reason I didn't include Britan. It's like stating that the laws in America only existed in the Queens english - that is false. The indians had their own tribal law predating the queen's english. And their laws coexisted with the Queens english. The difference is, much of tribal law is unwritten, it is taught and ingrained. That's one.

Gaelic predated Latin? In what area - oral or written? The Oral tradition *may* have originated around 100 BC. but there is not enough evidence to support this. The Gaelic or Goedelic branch of the Celtic language included Irish, Scots and Manx Gaelic. The written language of the Irish Celts can be broken up into four periods with the oldest being Archaic Old Irish which was from fourth century to about 750 AD.

The vernacular written language was a monastic invention, using the Latin alphabet to symbolize phonemes. The Irish used the Latin producing a written vernacular language. They invented the half-uncial script and their spelling was standardized by the Old Irish period (750-900 AD). Not only were all Irish documents written in the half-uncial script but so was Latin.

The Latino-Faliscan subgroup of Italic languages occupied lands on the left bank of the Tiber river in the 10th or 9th century BC. At this time Latinians did not know writing yet, and were under the influence of Etruscans. In the late 8th century the Greek alphabet was modified to make the Latin Alphabet.

The Classical Latin language took birth in the 6th century BC and eventually faded in the 4th and 5th century AD, becoming Popular Latin.

Not even sure I should look at the rest of the post, as the first parapgraph was largely inaccurate.

[al_c]

I know your not Catholic, because I have never heard them use that........... l-o-v-e-.... word before.

I seem to recall using it quite often in the Neverending Story.

[al_c]

I also am a follower of Jesus Christ, and am a real father of seven, and while we're on the subject, why do you allow people to call you "father", you are familiar with Mt 23:9 aren't you?

Paging First Conservative ... come in First Conservative. ;o)

[Fury]

But I am saying that it was not the common spoken or written language.

It all depends on the period and language you are referring to. Classical Latin? Popular Latin? Which?

Making such broad statements as you have casts inaccurate perceptions about Latin. But I suppose whatever. :)

[Wordsmith]

I also am a follower of Jesus Christ, and am a real father of seven, and while we're on the subject, why do you allow people to call you "father", you are familiar with Mt 23:9 aren't you?

Just curious JH, do you allow your seven children to call you "father"?

[DouglasKC]

First, I want to say it is refreshing that someone is actually teaching Christ and His love for us in the pulpit rather than legalism. The church today is so focused on legalism and the do and dont's of Christianity that they forget love.
To Douglas and Havoc: Is there a difference in being obedient out of love and being obedient out of duty???

God defined LOVE for us. He knew that if he didn't, that people would set their own standards and have their own ideas of what love is. So he set up the ten commandments, the royal law of love, so that we would KNOW when we walking in love or being deceived by Satan or ourselves. His standard is high....total love for God and total love for our fellow man.

The death of Christ on the cross enabled God's perfect love to indwell in us if we let it. Our behavior should conform to God's written standards, both physically and spiritually, if we are allowing God's love to dwell in us.

Obedience means nothing more than ALLOWING God's love to dwell in us. Therefore, you can't be obedient out of duty. You can try to perform the physical actions that define love, but you're going to fail miserably in keeping the spiritual side of this unless you are truly obedient to God and allow his love to work in you.

[al_c]

Thanx Al. Sorry I got a little hot headed with you yesterday. I was a little mad. You happened to walk in at a bad time. :-)

Yeah, I kinda got a knack for that. ;o)

Oh well you've still got a recent stanley cup to fall back on.

Not recent enough.

I am going to make one more comment regarding the fiasco in the Catholic church. I'd like you to respond. It seems to me nothing was going to be done about it until the "liberal media with an ungodly agenda" began to expose what was going on. If the media wouldn't have jumped all over it I can't help but think that it would have continued to be swept under the rug.

I think you're probably right on this. Yeah, they do have a knack for harping on the RCC, but this time it is deserved. Especially with what's been happening in Boston. We could use a few of those old school nuns and thier rulers right about now. Maybe they'd keep 'em in line.

[Titanites]

#2229 No ambiguity. Paul defines love for your neighbor as consisting of those commandments of God.

#2207 In Romans 13:9 You shall love your neighbor as yourself results in the commandments metioned earlier in the passage being kept; not that keeping the commandments defines love...I agree completely.

It doesn't seem to me like you're being consistent between your two posts. The commandments don't define love. They are the result of love.

[Fury]

This is an unsupported knard. Heresy was not so much a wrong belief as it was a belief that Catholicism didn't agree with. The word catholic is not recorded outside of frauds as a proper noun until the mid fifth Century when the first written example of a capitol C is used. That is whether you look at the latin or go back to the root languages of the religion. Try to find a translateable Capital U universal in a religious text that isn't a fraud and predates 438 and you will move the marker back. But, I've found nothing prior to that. The early church called themselves followers of Christ or "Christians". There was no need to change this. So when did a sect calling itself "Catholic" gather and name itself the "Catholic Church"?

Really? The phrase "the Catholic Church" (he katholike ekklesia) is in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written circa 110.

[DouglasKC]

#2229 No ambiguity. Paul defines love for your neighbor as consisting of those commandments of God.
#2207 In Romans 13:9 You shall love your neighbor as yourself results in the commandments metioned earlier in the passage being kept; not that keeping the commandments defines love...I agree completely.
It doesn't seem to me like you're being consistent between your two posts. The commandments don't define love. They are the result of love

Same difference. If our behavior isn't conforming to God's definition of love, the 10 commandments, then we obviously don't have God's love because the result isn't evident.

[JohnnyM]

"Therefore, you can't be obedient out of duty. You can try to perform the physical actions that define love, but you're going to fail miserably in keeping the spiritual side of this unless you are truly obedient to God and allow his love to work in you."

So then you agree, that obedience is the fruit of love, so our focus should then be on the source rather than the fruit. Our focus should be on the love of Christ, then we will naturally bear the fruit of obedience. If we focus on the fruit, we lose sight of the source, which is what father_elijah (please correct me if I am wrong) is talking about.

1 Cor 13:
1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith,
so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

I also am a follower of Jesus Christ, and am a real father of seven, and while we're on the subject, why do you allow people to call you "father", you are familiar with Mt 23:9 aren't you?

He does use the small "f" JH. In this instance I'd give the benefit of the doubt. I think you are correct though, in the thought that he is not a practicing RC Priest. Time will tell.

[Fury]

In other words, at best your quoting from no authority.

You perhaps mean from no authority which you accept. The list of research on the time period in question is expansive and exhausting. For whatever reason, you do not accept that research and have called the Church documents frauds and unreliable. Make it interesting, Havoc - at least provide some reliable documentation for your assertions :)

[DouglasKC]

So then you agree, that obedience is the fruit of love, so our focus should then be on the source rather than the fruit. Our focus should be on the love of Christ, then we will naturally bear the fruit of obedience. If we focus on the fruit, we lose sight of the source, which is what father_elijah (please correct me if I am wrong) is talking about.

I agree, but with a caveat. You can't focus on the source without knowing what it is. Satan is the master deceiver. If you throw out a general word like "love" or "love of Christ" and expect people to agree on the definition, then you've probably doomed many people to spiritual death.

Love of Christ has to be defined...and has been defined in the bible:

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.

[Titanites]

He does use the small "f" JH. In this instance I'd give the benefit of the doubt.

So the small "f" makes it acceptable?

[Fury]

Yep, and I think it goes to an earlier point - shop for a version that supports your point (whether it's supported by the greek or not). That's ok ventana, we understand. Some on your side have made up verses in "original aramaic" and tried to pawn them off in here. It's expected.

Sorry. You have no cause to criticize the version of Scripture that someone uses when you have been asked several times for what Bible you use and you decline to answer. Why is that?

I like you Havoc, I really do. But I am asking you to base what you espouse in facts, logic, reasoning and faith. But your arguments are good for helping us to study more and find out what the Scriptures and the early Church fathers had to say. I thank you.

[JohnnyM]

back to my original question. Are you keeping the commandments out of duty or out of love?? I don't know if your married, but if you are, do you give your wife flowers or gifts out of your duty as a husband or out of love for her?? Do you do things for your wife out of duty or out of love?? Can you define this love for your wife??? 1 Cor 13 states that if we have all faith so as to move mountains, but not love, then we are nothing. If we keep all the commandments of God, but do not have love, we are nothing.

JM

[Fury]

You aren't a hippy by chance are you?

There you start in with the derogatory comments when someone brings up points that you cannot adequately refute.

Please, stick to the matter at hand, OK? Thank you!

[Wordsmith]

I think you are correct though, in the thought that he is not a practicing RC Priest.

Reggie - father_elijah takes his screen name from a fictional character, I believe. But, this same poster has been open on other threads for some time about his "real life identity" as an active RC priest currently living in Egypt.