Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Pretty hard to take an issue where Jesus is shown differentiating between his Actual fleshly brothers and Spiritual brothers and say that he had one but not the other. They don't like verses like this LOL. We need bumper stickers that say "Truth" in big words at the top, and below "now watch for the twisting".
Nope. At least the 3rd heaven. (paradise) :-)
Ah, yes ... 'tis April Fool's Day. I heard something on the radio this morning about some guy that claimed that April Fool's Day was a slap in the face to God.
Don't have time to respond at length. Three questions:
In light of this passage from Ecclesiastes, what is your take on the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration?
Who are the cloud of witnesses? Do you believe they have nothing to do with our life in the world?
Can you expand on your belief of the difference between fleshly life and spiritual life? I don't see the distinction that you are trying to make. The life of the spirit is not just about our life after our physical death. Do you believe that eternal life does not begin until after physical death?
I don't think you were supposed to give it away so quickly.
Besides, we could have gone the whole day in peace.
LOL, I can't help it, I'm a skeptic by nature. ;o)
That, or you can spot a thread addict a mile away.
Elijah was a prophet, Elisa was the heir apparent of his role, Elisa wanted some of Elijahs spiritual gifts imputed to him. The mantle was literally passed to Elisha (2 Kings 2:14)
As far as the letter to Jehoram...well, Elijah was a prophet, correct? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that he wrote the letter before the events of 2 Kings 2? And that someone else later delivered it for him?
It makes more sense that he actually wrote the letter and didn't go to heaven...
Furthermore consider the case of Enoch:
Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. (Genesis 5:24)
This is what the Christian scriptures have to say about Enoch:
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5)
Okay since Christian scripture is fair game for you :-)...how do you explain what Jesus said:
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
Did Jesus not know about Elijah and Enoch or was Jesus lying? First rule: Trust a supreme being when he tells us something. Nobody has gone to heaven. So we have to find an interpetation of these verses that fit what Jesus tells us, not what we think happens.
Scripture doesn't tell us where Enoch went, only that God took him somewhere. But Enoch died because:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
The same expression "all the day" are the same words used for the deaths of the other 8 people in this chapter...all of whom died.
Hebrews 11:5 tells us Enoch was "taken away." The same Greek word refers to the remains of the patriarch Jacob being "carried" from Egypt (where he had died) to Shechem, where he was later buried.
It's not without precedent that God might take a body for whatever reason and hide it:
Deu 34:5 And Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moab, according to the Word of Jehovah.
Deu 34:6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor. But no man knows of his grave to this day.
Reading this chapter the only other "He" that this could be referring to is the Lord.
So bottom line, Jesus said nobody went up to heaven. Elijah is taken up by a whirlwind to another location, Enoch dies but we don't know what God did with him, just like we don't know what God did with Moses body.
Havoc, you respect the Word of God in the Bible for what you personally interpret it as meaning. Are you presuming that I am ignoring or bored with the Word of God? I am not rebellious in the least, I adhere to every teaching of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, who has taught us for 2000 years.
Check this out - it is where I first read about 1 Thessalonians 5:22— called "The Sin Sniffer’s Catch-All Verse" and, it is a Calvinist website.
Jesus said nobody "ascended" into Heaven. That's not necessarily the same thing as "nobody went up to Heaven" - And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. As a great man once said... "First rule: Trust a supreme being when he tells us something. So we have to find an interpetation of these verses that fit what Jesus tells us, not what we think happens. ".
Jesus went to Heaven under his own power. He ascended. If God chose to take others up (also by His power), they did not "ascend". The difference between "ascend" and "taken up" makes a lot more sense than trying to determine which Scripture means what it says and which does not. The prefered interpretation must be that they are both correct.
Job 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
First of all. I answered Angelo's question. I answered the Lord took Enoch to heaven. I didn't comment on whether or not he died first. Secondly, The same surpreme being that inspired Hebrews 11;5 inspired Job 3:13 and Gen 5:23. By faith I accept all of these as being absolute truth. I may not understand the seeming contradiction. However, that being said, if God took Enoch to heaven without having to die first my faith aint gonna be shaken.
Elisha didn't ask Elijah to 'lend' him these spiritual gifts. He asked to 'inherit' them. You can't 'inherit' something from someone who is still on this earth.
It makes more sense that he actually wrote the letter and didn't go to heaven...
Only because of your other presumptions. If Elijah was still on this earth, where was he? If he was close enough to easily arrange the delivery of a letter, then why did he not just come in person? If he was far away, then how did he arrange for it to be delivered? No Fed Ex available back then. Not even the Roman postal system. Why didn't he come and give his message in person? It sure would have been easier on Jeremiah if he could have sent his prophecies to Jerusalem by slow camel. I'm sure Jonah would have preferred to write a letter rather than going to Ninevah in person.
So we have to find an interpetation of these verses that fit what Jesus tells us, not what we think happens.
Well, maybe you do; I don't. ;o)
Enoch dies but we don't know what God did with him,
That contradicts the passage from Hebrews I cited. It says that Enoch "was taken up so that he should not see death". If you believe the whole of the Christian scriptures to be inspired, you need to reconcile what Jesus said with what the author of Hebrews said.
To be fair. Reggie has always seemed strongly pro-life on this thread. It is no fairer to tie him to political views of the unitarians (that he never really said he belonged to) than for some NC to tie us to Brazilian witchcraft and voodoo performed by people who call themselves Catholic.
Good point, I didn't catch that distinction.
Assuming you mean I'm one of the anti-catholic brethren I would like to say my stance on abortion is unapologetically documented numberous times on theses threads. I would say most NC's probably arent joining in on your insignificant attempts at conversation because they've considered the source. Thank you for listening.
"All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers. During those days, Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus."
Do you think the 120 brothers were the brothers of the Lord or the brothers of Peter?
And I guess all those brothers must have been unhappy when Jesus said to the disciple he loved "Woman, behold, your son" and when he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother" - Why would he have entrusted a disciple to care for his mother when she had all those other sons and daughters?
Nah, that's semantics. "Going up" means ascend. If I'm going up in an elevator that somebody pushed me into, I'm ascending. If I'm in an elevator going up on my own free will, I'm ascending.
Jesus makes it clear in a couple of other places that nobody is in heaven:
Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
If nobody has seen God, then Elijah and Enoch can't be in heaven with him.
And again:
Joh 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God, He has seen the Father.
And yet again:
1Jo 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.
Jesus says that nobody has ascended to heaven. He tells us that nobody but him has ever seen God. The logical conclusion is that he's telling the truth.
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