The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Invincibly Ignorant]

You confuse philosophy with the mystical theology of the Church, and you cite Scripture in a way that in no way demonstrates an error in my theological position. I understand that you do not have the fulness of the hermeneutics of the Roman Catholic Church to draw upon, nor do you have the venerable framework of the Orthodox Christians to assist the boundaries of your position.

Is the above arrogant or what? I have special knowlege you know not of. LOL.

[OLD REGGIE]

Jesus was referring to certain opponents of his.

Sure. Opponents such as:

"We [the pope] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter "The Reunion of Christendom," dated June 20, 1894, trans. in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, p. 304.)

[RobbyS]

Loud-Mouthed, certainly. But he is a counter-puncher, not a bully, and if you saw the interview that he gave to Jennings, and had read what he has said in another place(I'll try to find the thread) then you would know you are talking through your rear-end.

[SoothingDave]

Re 1672

So considering that Mary and the saints IF they could even hear you, can only deal with one thing at a time. And If you consider that it takes 10 seconds to say a hail Mary with any sense of devotion, If Mary or a saint ONLY listened to all the prayers sent to any one of them, they could hear 86,400 prayers if they all came in a back to back order in a 24 hour period. And that is if they were not hearing them overlapped and could distinguish from devotional and free form prayers, etc. If we consider the number of Catholics saying the Rosary daily (fifty three hail Marys) There is no way possible for them to hear all of you praying to them constantly. If we merely assume that there are 1billion Roman Catholics as has been claimed here, then assume that each prays but one Hail mary a day - and only one, then Mary would never hear them all and would be utterly confused and confounded by the overlap. She is not a god, let's remember - not omniscient nor omnipresent. If she stopped to answer any prayer - assuming she had that power, she then cuts down further on the numbers she could hear if she could even differentiate. Imagine standing accross the street from an arena full of 100,000 people. If they all screamed chears at once, you would merely here pitched noises - nothing specific, unless they chanted in unison, and then you wouldn't be able to tell who wasn't chanting or who specifically was, you aren't omniscient or omnipresent.

Still have a bugaboo about Eternity, don't you?

And time is different for God, not us.

I see. You don't expect to be with God in a place outside of Time? I certainly do expect to be with God in His Heaven.

SD

[malakhi]

See #2315 for the real Donahue.

Well, either he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth, or his position has "evolved" since March 21st. On the ABC special he was quite strident in his criticism of the bishops, over both their handling of molestation cases and (IIRC) over their complacency about homosexuals entering the priesthood.

[RobbyS]

Sure he was, Reg, Jesus--who was like us in all ways except sin-- knew the whole history of the world. Except, where does the Bible make this claim?

[SoothingDave]

Re 1691

Meaning that the vision that Paul had on the road to Damascus was also an illusion.

Meaning it was a vision.

You know where this leads, don't you, Havoc?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 1885

It was a vision...it didn't happen in reality. God caused Peter, James and John to see a vision of Moses and Elijah.

Hmmmm, I could make the same claim about the resurrection accounts.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Thank you, angelo, for pointing out exactly where this "it was just a vision" stuff was leading.

SD

[malakhi]

Is the above arrogant or what? I have special knowlege you know not of. LOL.

I had hermeneutics once, but the doctors were able to cure me. ;o)

[nate4one]

Hey
I visited the Biblical Christianity board and saw the conversation between you and BibChr (Dan)

Though I do not agree with RC doctrine, I have known many saved RC's. (In my opinion).
Too bad you stumbled upon a very dogmatic, judgmental protestant, who himself, believes a very twisted "dispensational" lie not taught in scripture. I am sure you have seen this thread, but jump on in. We'd love to have ya!!

Bibchr as a courtesy. I do not go behind the back!

[father_elijah]

I also know what talking to the dead is - and that it is a sin.

So are you saying Jesus was guilty of sin for speaking to Moses at the time of His transfiguration? Not so!

[malakhi]

and if you saw the interview that he gave to Jennings

I can corroborate you on this. I was surprised how strongly he spoke out on the subject. I checked the abcnews.com website, and unfortunately they don't have a transcript.

Its too bad that not a single member of the hierarchy was willing to speak to ABC for their special.

[malakhi]

Hey Dave, they keeping you busy at work?

[OLD REGGIE]

I was reading an Orthodox sermon on "call no man father" at home. I don't have time to post about it at length now, but I'm not ignoring you and will respond later. In brief, I don't think that Our Lord objects to the use of the term "father" or "teacher" when these terms are properly understood by the one using them, even though if interpreted literally the passage forbids both terms. God bless.

I agree 100% and am on record. I believe it becomes troublesome when the title escalates to approach that of "Our Father in Heaven". This is why I reject to the use of "The Holy Father" applied to any person on earth.

[SoothingDave]

Re 1713

You still haven't told us how it is reasonable to ask those who have gained their rest from this life to labor 24/7 for you - For that is specifically what you're telling us you expect. Those gone on may spend time praising God; but, that in no way implies spending their time in heaven slaving away for your hide. There are plenty enough people on this planet for you to call to that chore.

Re 1935

Last time I looked, this particular question wasn't about love, was it. It's about work. And when I get the weekend off, I don't spend my time at work slaving away for the company. When I retire, that doesn't mean I have more time for the company. So rather than trying to dodge the question, how about answering it. Why do you expect me, when I retire from work, to spend all my time working for you instead of enjoying my rest?

Re 1957

You may never sleep again. From this moment forth, you exist only to serve me. Now, tell me about the love.

Wow! Havoc seems to be looking forward to a "heaven" where he doesn't have to bother worrying or caring about anybody ever again. This attitude just about leaves me speechless.

Do you know how profoundly selfish this is? The thought that, being in communion with each other, being one huge family, we would naturally be concerned with the lives of all is so matural to me. The thought that this would be a burden, would place demands upon me, would interfere with my rest is mind boggling.

Of course, you said it last week when you said we were not in communion with each other, just one with God. I didn't realize how fully you meant it.

SD

[BibChr]

Whatever. You share the same rape'n'ruin approach to much of God's Word as his sect. Maybe you can be good buds!

Dan

[SoothingDave]

Re 1848

The more correct question would be why did G-d have His Word written in the most precise language in the world (koine Greek)?

If I believed that, an even better question would be why didn't God use it for the Old Testament as well?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 1900

I posted this in response to some of Dave's comments which seemed to place him on the side of the supercessionists. "Everlasting" means everlasting.

We went over this before and I am not one who believes God reneges on His Covenants.

But, saying that, I don't believe that that means that I have to automatically approve of everything that the modern state of Israel does, do I?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 1908

Can Jones actually do it? I think he should sell to Mark Cuban.

Not a bad idea! ;o) I wonder if Cuban is fanatical about football as he is basketball.

Probably not.

Ahem. Need I remind you that Cuban is a native Pittsburgher?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 1948

I'm a little puzzled as to why Mary is referred to as your "Queen"...doesn't the use of the term indicate that you believe your are subject of Mary's, that Mary is your ruler?

It means what it always means. That she is the mother of the King.

SD