The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[BibChr]

You are lying. I've no time for liars. You are a liar. You were given Scripture, didn't like it, threw a hissy fit, stormed out.

Leave me out of your rationalizations. It won't really deal with the conscience problem you're having. Expect to be ignored.

Dan

[OLD REGGIE]

You highlight this as if you have a problem understanding the media is atheistic. You might want to recognize that the media is virulently against the Catholic Church and what She stands for, and that one has to take what they say with a grain of salt.

I recognize that, once again, you have your "William Donahue" hat on. I imagine your blanket statement includes media such as EWTN, The Boston Pilot, and the like? Listen my friend, I have lived enough and have enough experience that I don't automatically believe I am hearing or reading "all" the truth. Unlike you, I have a speck of objectivity within.
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It seems you don't mind who you help in their agenda, that you are prepared to believe anything bad anyone says about the Catholic Church.

Notwithstanding your qualifier "seems", this statement in an absoloute untruth. A lie and you know it is.
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You wouldn't automatically believe everything the media say about Clinton or Bush. Why the Church?

Totally rediculous. BTW I do believe the RCC has a very serious problem with their clergy and I believe it is people such as you, who have preferred to close your eyes to any hint of "irregularity", sweep problems under the rug, and above all, do anything possible to protect the "Church" from scandal no matter the cost to innocent victims.

[SoothingDave]

Celibacy CAN cause sin in this area, the Church should allow marriage.

Are there no married men (or women) who commit pedophilia?

SD

[malakhi]

It means what it always means. That she is the mother of the King.

"What it always means"? I checked dictionary.com, and that definition is not included in any of the listings for "queen".

queen Pronunciation Key (kwn) n.

1. a. The wife or widow of a king.
b. A woman sovereign.
2. Something having eminence or supremacy in a given domain and personified as a woman: Paris is regarded as the queen of cities.
3. Abbr. Q Games.
The most powerful chess piece, able to move in any direction over any number of empty squares in a straight line.
A playing card bearing the figure of a queen, ranking above the jack and below the king.
4. The fertile, fully developed female in a colony of social bees, ants, or termites.

[SoothingDave]

Is there scripture to support this?

None that you'd believe, I am afraid. ;-)

(Mary being "full of grace" is the starting point to her being saved before any other human. I am hoping we all agree that all in Heaven will have their wills aligned with God's.)

SD

[nate4one]

So are you saying Jesus was guilty of sin for speaking to Moses at the time of His transfiguration? Not so!

Scuse'. You seem to have missed the majority of the discussion. Jesus said it was a vision. Do we know what a "vision" is as oposed to a physical reality?

These two are not related. Christ was in His spirit form, in His original glory, therefore at a different level and ability to communicate.
Just as we will converse with each other in heaven.

But the act of praying to be directed to only the Father is not mistakable.

These two situations are unrelated!!!

[SoothingDave]

"What it always means"? I checked dictionary.com, and that definition is not included in any of the listings for "queen".

This would be closest:

1. a. The wife or widow of a king.

She is not a widow or wife, but she is a Queen Mother in the same sense as not being royalty, but helping to bring about royalty.

SD

[DouglasKC]

It means what it always means. That she is the mother of the King.
"What it always means"? I checked dictionary.com, and that definition is not included in any of the listings for "queen".

Hey yeah, you almost had me with that...I was thinking of the Queen Mother thing, but Angelo just made me realize she's not still called the Queen, but the Queen mother. Queen is a title given only to the current ruler.

[nate4one]

Are there no married men (or women) who commit pedophilia?

This topic is not an "absolute" Dave!

The fact that the Church ADDS a burden (similar toNew Testament Gentiles if they were to get circumcised) that THEY are not able to bear is rediculous and unfounded, and even warned against in scripture.

[SoothingDave]

I think if you reread this, you might see why I interpreted your remarks the way I did. The point you made, whether or not you intended to, was that Christians have inherited God's promise to Abraham, and that God's promises to Israel are no longer in effect or are "spiritualized". That is supercessionism.

Well, that's not what I meant. I mean, I do believe that spiritually we Christians are "descendents" of Abraham. But that doesn't mean that actual Jews are not still valid in their Covenant and promises.

I just am not sure that this present attempt to "re-claim" Israel is ordained by God. It certainly was not a call to return to the Covenant, it was mainly a secular thing. And remains so to this day.

Even if I believed that it is this present time that God intended to bring the Jews back to their homeland, this is not an excuse to simply ignore the other sides to the present difficulties, or to give the Jewish state carte blanche.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

(Attributed to Old Reggie) What I called "double talk" was establishing the straw man and answering him. This is a typical apologist trick and I didn't expect it from you.

I am not going to backtrack to see to whom I made this post. It is sufficient that I know I didn't make it to you. I absouletly would expect you to play out of the apologist bag of tricks.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

Thanks Dave. I have to wait a month to post it to the internet because of their copyright policy. But I will post it here in May.

[Wordsmith]

If you did it to me, You'd be kindly asked to shut up on the second one, by the third I'd take the magazine back

MT 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Praise God that Jesus wasn't speaking to Havoc. If the Father acts the way that Havoc advocates, after the third time He would have taken away Jesus's magazine. ;)

[Brian Kopp DPM]

Yeah, it kind of stinks to have to rely only on the revealed word of God. :-)

Gosh, I know what you mean, especially given the fact that scripture alone ain't scriptural, but scripture and tradition is scriptural. You make a great point here.

[Havoc]

Wow! Havoc seems to be looking forward to a "heaven" where he doesn't have to bother worrying or caring about anybody ever again. This attitude just about leaves me speechless. Do you know how profoundly selfish this is? The thought that, being in communion with each other, being one huge family, we would naturally be concerned with the lives of all is so matural to me. The thought that this would be a burden, would place demands upon me, would interfere with my rest is mind boggling. Of course, you said it last week when you said we were not in communion with each other, just one with God. I didn't realize how fully you meant

Selfish?! Selfish is robbing me of my rest from this life because of your philosophical desire to have heaven carry your water for you instead of placing it where it belongs - between you and God. So with all due respect Dave - buzz off and don't try to feed me a guilt trip because I won't head your worthless sinful doctrine.

[SoothingDave]

I imagine your blanket statement includes media such as EWTN, The Boston Pilot, and the like?

You're getting silly now. You know exactly what I mean.

BTW I do believe the RCC has a very serious problem with their clergy and I believe it is people such as you, who have preferred to close your eyes to any hint of "irregularity", sweep problems under the rug, and above all, do anything possible to protect the "Church" from scandal no matter the cost to innocent victims.

You speak from an absolute position of ignorance here. Conservative, orthodox Catholics like me have been crying in the wilderness for decades about the liberal insanity going on inside of the Church, especially here in America. We have been begging and pleading for Rome to crack down on the crackpot liberal bishops and the heresy they sponsor. They are now getting their just rewards and the current situation is a fabulous opportunity for the Faith to be renewed.

We've tried things the "spirit of Vaitcan II" way and they have given us empty Churches, dis-belief in key elements of the faith, and sexual scandal. It is time for a restoration and people like me will be glad when it occurs. Yes, things will get worse. Yes, things will look bleak. Yes, the numbers of "Catholics" will fall.

But the Church will emerge strong and purged of the hideous accotrements She picked up in the post-conciliar era.

Try reading the Wanderer sometime.

SD

[Uri’el-2012]

Re 1848

XS>The more correct question would be why did G-d have His Word written in the most precise language in the world (koine Greek)?

SD>If I believed that, an even better question would be why didn't God use it for the Old Testament as well?
SD
2357 posted on 4/9/02 12:02 PM Mountain by SoothingDave

He did ;

It is called the Septuagint ( LXX ) !

I know because my L-rd, Y'shua quoted from it.

Baruch HaShem Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach

Praise the Holy Name of the L-rd Jesus the Christ

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

[SoothingDave]

I have to wait a month to post it to the internet because of their copyright policy. But I will post it here in May.

Good. I think even the folks here you've managed to upset will appreciate the article.

SD

[malakhi]

Well, that's not what I meant. I mean, I do believe that spiritually we Christians are "descendents" of Abraham. But that doesn't mean that actual Jews are not still valid in their Covenant and promises.

OK, thank you for the clarification.

I just am not sure that this present attempt to "re-claim" Israel is ordained by God. It certainly was not a call to return to the Covenant, it was mainly a secular thing. And remains so to this day.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

this is not an excuse to simply ignore the other sides to the present difficulties, or to give the Jewish state carte blanche.

Would you care to offer your defense of the Palestinians? I'd love to hear your case for "the other side to the present difficulty".

[trad_anglican]

Are there no married men (or women) who commit pedophilia?

But the problem isn't pedophilia is it? It's pederasty which is in almost all cases unique to homosexuals. I think a plausible theory is that

1)an all Celibate clergy will lead to a higher percentage of homosexuals among the clergy population than among the general population.

2)a higher percentage of homosexuals will lead to a higher instance of pederasty

3) Therefore, the introduction of married priests will lead to a lower instance of pederasty among the clergy than presently exists.

Obviously, an alternative is to more thoroughly screen homosexuals out of the ranks of the celibate clergy, in which point number 1 above becomes false.