The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[IMRight]

Jesus said nobody "ascended" into Heaven. That's not necessarily the same thing as "nobody went up to Heaven"

Good point, I didn't catch that distinction.

Always a good idea to pay attention to what Jesus said, si? :)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Now, are the brothers you are referring to the same ones found in Acts 1:14,15 and 16?

Let's take this in order. Please respond to my comment and the scripture I posted first. Don't respond to my question with questions.

[trad_anglican]

I heard something on the radio this morning about some guy that claimed that April Fool's Day was a slap in the face to God.

That's right, Al, Didnt' you know that it was secretly instituted by Constantine in order to seal his stranglehold on the truly apostolic church of the New Testament? It was right after he invented Easter.

[IMRight]

Nah, that's semantics.

Semantics - the meaning of words. Yep, that's exactly what it is. The elevator ascends... you are along for the ride.

If nobody has seen God, then Elijah and Enoch can't be in heaven with him.

Nah. Those two statements don't go together. "nobody has seen God" does not imply "nobody is in Heaven".

[Havoc]

In light of this passage from Ecclesiastes, what is your take on the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration?

Let's see.. Elijah was taken up bodily to heaven (ie - didn't die first). And Moses.. What happened to Moses? Did Moses Die? Careful now. What do the scriptures say?

Who are the cloud of witnesses? Do you believe they have nothing to do with our life in the world?

I believe the scriptures. And I believe that what I believe has no effect on scripture.

Can you expand on your belief of the difference between fleshly life and spiritual life? I don't see the distinction that you are trying to make. The life of the spirit is not just about our life after our physical death. Do you believe that eternal life does not begin until after physical death?

Don't see the distinction or don't want to? And I have made no distinction that scripture has not already made. Ecclesiastes 6:2 - 3 says that Death comes to the righteous and the evil alike - physical death. But when the righteous drop and the body rots, their spirits have life in Heaven while the unrighteous have death in hell. Both have still died in the flesh. And this is what Ecclesiastes is saying. Those that have died in the flesh no longer have any effect on what transpires here. Period. I choose to believe scripture; but, whether I believe it or not, it is still true because it is the Word of God.

[DouglasKC]

First of all. I answered Angelo's question. I answered the Lord took Enoch to heaven. I didn't comment on whether or not he died first. Secondly, The same surpreme being that inspired Hebrews 11;5 inspired Job 3:13 and Gen 5:23. By faith I accept all of these as being absolute truth. I may not understand the seeming contradiction. However, that being said, if God took Enoch to heaven without having to die first my faith aint gonna be shaken.

The only thing is that it never says that Enoch went to heaven. It says he was "metatithemi" which can mean "carried over" (Acts 7:16), "removed" (Gal 1:6), "being changed" (Hebrews 7:12), or "turning" (Jud 1:4). The sense being that God did something with Enoch, but we know not what. Scripture is silent on what exactly did happen. But that brings up another question: If Elijah and Enoch got to go to heaven, how come Abraham, Moses, David and other old testament heroes are never mentioned as going there?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

That's right, Al, Didnt' you know that it was secretly instituted by Constantine in order to seal his stranglehold on the truly apostolic church of the New Testament? It was right after he invented Easter.

I actually applaud whoever made Easter and the ressurection day the same. I heard that somebody, don't know if it was Constantine or not, made the celebration of ressurection day on the same day as Easter to divert attention away from the pagan holiday. My only complaint is that I wished later on as the pagan day became more and more unpopular that they would have changed the name.

[IMRight]

Let's see.. Elijah was taken up bodily to heaven (ie - didn't die first).

Doug doesn't seem to think so. Could you help him out?

[Havoc]

Check this out - it is where I first read about 1 Thessalonians 5:22— called "The Sin Sniffer’s Catch-All Verse" and, it is a Calvinist website. The Sin Sniffer's Catch-All Verse

So you've adopted someone elses' excuse to cover your own wrongdoing.. how original (not).

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The only thing is that it never says that Enoch went to heaven. It says he was "metatithemi" which can mean "carried over" (Acts 7:16), "removed" (Gal 1:6), "being changed" (Hebrews 7:12), or "turning" (Jud 1:4). The sense being that God did something with Enoch, but we know not what. Scripture is silent on what exactly did happen. But that brings up another question: If Elijah and Enoch got to go to heaven, how come Abraham, Moses, David and other old testament heroes are never mentioned as going there?

Doug. How many ways do you want to hear "I don't know"? :-)

[dadwags]

#120
A possible "reason" for Christ's death, using "logic"
Since Adam and Eve offended God in Eden, Any offense against the Almighty is deserving of death . So, the proper atonement for that offebse is death . However, the offense was commited by man and , therefore must be paid by man . Then again, the Person offended was God, so payment could be adequately made only by God .
Ergo, Christ, as both man and God paid the price for OUR sins .
This is a "logical explanation .
It is obviously inadequate because , as limited as our human understanding is, we can never fully understand the mysteries of God's loving relationship with us, IMVHO.

[Mr. Lucky]

What are the differences, if any, between Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans?

The Wisconsin Synod is often referred to as more conservative. The two were in full communion for a number of years, but the Missouri Synod apparently committed some act of apostasy for which it cannot now be forgiven so the two bodies no longer have much to do with one another.

[dadwags]

#120
A possible "reason" for Christ's death, using "logic"
Since Adam and Eve offended God in Eden, Any offense against the Almighty is deserving of death . So, the proper atonement for that offebse is death . However, the offense was commited by man and , therefore must be paid by man . Then again, the Person offended was God, so payment could be adequately made only by God .
Ergo, Christ, as both man and God paid the price for OUR sins .
This is a "logical explanation .
It is obviously inadequate because , as limited as our human understanding is, we can never fully understand the mysteries of God's loving relationship with us, IMVHO.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Not when he called me a "sick puppy" for comparing abortion to child molestation, or at any other time, so far as I can recall.

So you prefer child molestation I take it?

[IMRight]

Not when he called me a "sick puppy" for comparing abortion to child molestation, or at any other time, so far as I can recall.

Could you be more specific? I don't remember it that way. I remember OR making some (unfair) remarks about the RCC's current problem with sinfull priests and you said something like "at least we don't kill babies like you guys". Reggie could be forgiven for just shutting down over that kind of comment (just like we can be forgiven for not wanting to "defend" something in our church which we despise but can't control). I certainly can't remember him ever agreeing with some UUA notion of "choice".

[IMRight]

You, sir, are not helping. I can't chastise him for tying Reggie to somebody else's sinfull actions that Reggie despises if you are going to go off and tie Allend to to somebody else's sinfull actions that Allend despises.

RCs are torn up inside over the sinfull actions (at so many levels) of members of our church. Just as you would be if the sin of members of your congregation were made known and tied to you. Allend doesn't agree with child molestation any more than you agree with abortion. Why even make a comparisson?

[malakhi]

He tells us that nobody but him has ever seen God. The logical conclusion is that he's telling the truth.

So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "Thou art a God of seeing"; for she said, "Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?" (Genesis 16:13)

But Moses said to the LORD, "Then the Egyptians will hear of it, for thou didst bring up this people in thy might from among them,
and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that thou, O LORD, art in the midst of this people; for thou, O LORD, art seen face to face, and thy cloud stands over them and thou goest before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night. (Numbers 14:13-14)

Moses said, "I pray thee, show me thy glory."
And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name `The LORD'; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."
And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand upon the rock;
and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by;
then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:18-23)

[trad_anglican]

My only complaint is that I wished later on as the pagan day became more and more unpopular that they would have changed the name.

I agree with you that calling the feast of the resurrection "Easter" is unfortunate. I wondered why you mentioned "Pesach" instead of "Pascha" as an alternative. I'm fairly certain that the observation of the Pascha or Christian Passover pre-dates Constantine, though the use of the term "Easter" could very well have come from that time. If that is what you meant when you attributed it to Constantine, then you may be correct.

Happy Pascha, Steven.

[malakhi]

Always a good idea to pay attention to what Jesus said, si? :)

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:18-19)

The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat;
so practice and observe whatever they tell you (Matthew 23:2-3)