Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
As you have been asked to provide references for what you speak of, yet you do not. Perhaps you should consider holding yourself up to the same standard you expect others to adhere to.
To me, this sounds remarkably like robbing a bank, but saying to God first, "if you really don't want me to have the money, you will make sure the police catch me first".
sodomy
n : anal intercourse committed by a man with a man or woman
Or...
sodomy
\Sod"om*y\, n. [From Sodom. a country mentioned in the Bible: cf. F. sodomite.] Carnal copulation in a manner against nature; buggery. --Gen. xix. 5.
What is your definition of sodomy? These seem pretty specific.
-Kevin
Why am I even asking? Do I expect a coherent answer?
SD
This will work:
Carnal copulation in a manner against nature
Are you gonna tell me it's natural to wrap your memeber in a factory produced sheath of latex?
Are you gonna tell me it's natural for your wife to monkey with her body's hormones in a manner where her womb is made unfit for implantation?
Are you gonna tell me it's natural for a man to have his vas deferens severed?
SD
Given the implications of Steven's comment, maybe it just seemed that long to poor Methuselah.
If he is, then he does not, unfortunately, understand the early Greek definition of "saint".
China never caused anyone under their influence to kill Christians? The others listed didn't? Even if we accept your interpretation of "guilty of the blood" and accept your version of history I don't see how you differentiate between the two.
Peace be with all.
At what point is the threshold crossed where the act must conclude in coitus or it becomes sinful?
SD - Sorry, I'm not familar with the term? ;-)
And now we learn why Dave's wife doesn't participate here like Becky does? I can only imagine what Becky's response would be after Mack posted something like that.
Anyone ever tell you you ask too many darn questions?
SD
You say that intent is what matters. What is your intent when placing the "raw materials where they belong"? Is it your intention to procreate? Or is it your intention to have the pleasure without the procreation?
-Kevin
That's right, they didn't. Rome moved in people to govern such conquered provinces themselves. Once they'd establish a territory would be governed as a roman territory and their laws were in place it was part of the empire without a seperate government. And by the time of the inquisitions, the governments of the France, Spain and Germany operated independantly but were nagged and bullied into subjection by the Roman Church to do their bidding. Seperate governments - not one in the same. This is the reason that passing a law making heresy deserving of capitol punishment in Germany had no effect in Spain.
Helps if you look beyond the surface appearances.
The intent is to have the pleasure while remaining open to the possibility of procreation. Both aspects are thus there.
We need not intend to procreate, but we should be open to the possibility.
SD
Stumped again, eh? ;o)
Someone wearing a condom could make the same claim.
EC:9 - 1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them. 2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me: 14 There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it: 15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man. 16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard. 17 The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that ruleth among fools. 18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.
Now, I’m not going to presume to have sufficient wisdom to interpret this entire chapter. But I just don’t see the meaning in it that you seem to see. Obviously, neither you nor I believes that Scripture can contradict itself. But just as obviously, the two key passages of this chapter (in terms of our current debate) are violated in the New Testament. The two key passages seem to be:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Clearly, this chapter makes no distinction among those who physically die. You’ve said as much. Just as clearly, this is violated by Jesus Christ – Who we both admit is no Lawbreaker. He is fully man, yet He certainly has a portion after His physical death in that which is done under the sun. This whole chapter seems to be crying out for the Messiah, for the need for the Christ who will save us from the death of the grave. And He came! And He saved us from death! Tombs were open and the dead walked among the citizens of Jerusalem. Lazarus walked free of the tomb. He died, yet certainly had more to do with that which happens under the sun. The passages I cited at length from John and other NT books, with which you agree, maintain that those who belong to God do not die.
You keep talking about a distinction between spiritual life and physical life. I don’t see any such distinction in the chapter above. I say that in Christ the distinction is destroyed. I say this because it is the clear teaching of both the Scriptures and the Church. Physical death is meaningless. The corpse in the ground is not your grandmother. Everlasting life has conquered the tomb. The problem of the grave, which this chapter cries out over, has been SOLVED.
You keep saying that the Law of the OT says that the dead cannot have anymore to do with the living. The Scripture above is the only one you refer to. I don’t see the Law you claim to see. I see a statement of fact, and a sad fact it is – “a living dog is better than a dead lion.” This chapter does not seem to be saying that God wants this to be the way that things are. And as we learn in the New Testament, He doesn’t. He doesn’t want the grave to be the end, so He sends His Son to bring us EVERLASTING LIFE. Hooray!
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