The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[ksen]

This will work:

Carnal copulation in a manner against nature

You neglected to point out that the “against nature” meant anal intercourse.

Are you gonna tell me it's natural to wrap your memeber in a factory produced sheath of latex?

Doesn’t apply.

Are you gonna tell me it's natural for your wife to monkey with her body's hormones in a manner where her womb is made unfit for implantation?

Doesn’t apply.

Are you gonna tell me it's natural for a man to have his vas deferens severed?

Doesn’t………Hey! Wait a minute!

Is it natural to have any medical procedure performed on your body?

I believe the Bible is silent on the subject. I believe that this is an area where what happens between a husband and wife is between them and God.

-Kevin

[SoothingDave]

We need not intend to procreate, but we should be open to the possibility.

Someone wearing a condom could make the same claim.

And the guy with the vasectomey could, too. Doesn't mean they aren't placing artificial barriers in the way. NFP places no artificial barriers in the way.

In this sense the condom wearer or the vasectomeied is not engaged in a true unitive giving of oneself. they are deliberatley holding back.

SD

[history_matters]

Havoc, earlier I allowed my anger with your words and your attitude to get the best of me. I typed things in a way that wasn't helpful to either the discussion or things I care about very deeply.

To be honest I find your words hollow. I don't like the way you use God's Word like a weapon with which you beat up on people who already believe in Jesus Christ.

You make demands of Father Elijah to respond to you on your own terms without any effort to understand his posts which are elegant and thoughtful and true to Christ.

And frankly your demands seem silly since you won't interact with Fury or Wordsmith who have provided you with Biblical challenges that you steadfastly ignore.

[ksen]

We need not intend to procreate, but we should be open to the possibility.

That's what I told you was my intent when I had my vasectomy done. How it is sin when I have that attitude, but not sin when you do?

-Kevin

[Havoc]

Who's confusing what with what again? Why do you think the carcass is the person?

The carcass is a living form until it dies, then only the spirit lives on either with God or in Separation from him. Either way, there is death of the body and death of the spirit. If I reference death of the body, you equate it with death of the spirit as a dodge. If I clarify, you seperate them again. It's called a mind game - ie confusion. Doesn't work with me.

[dadwags]

#3132
I think that, rather than calling contraceptive sex "sodomy", perhaps "Onanism" would be a more accurate term .
BTW, When considering the "pill", also consider the possible side effects , such as increased (somewhat) cancer risk) and other future unintended consequences . My source for this is nothing more than hear-say.

[history_matters]

The Word of God written in the Holy Bible is not identical with Jesus Christ the Word made flesh of the Virgin Mary his blessed mother.

We worship God; we do not worship a book no matter how holy or blessed or inspired by God.

[SoothingDave]

Carnal copulation in a manner against nature

You neglected to point out that the “against nature” meant anal intercourse.

And so much more. Anal intercourse is but one (no pun intended) of the ways man has found to have unnatural sex.

Is it natural to have any medical procedure performed on your body?

Of course not. It is, however, against medical ethics and morality to deliberately destroy a functioning part of the body. Many devout Christians do not drink or smoke for fear of polluting the body. And others feel free to remove the parts they find inconvenient.

I believe the Bible is silent on the subject. I believe that this is an area where what happens between a husband and wife is between them and God.

You have said more than I think you meant.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Can't explain that grey hair, though. ;o)

Do you forget some of your past talks with Becky so fast? It has the same affect on me, but far greater, I'm face to face with her every day! :)

BigMack

[dadwags]

#3128
Who is that poet imposter impersonating BigMack? :) (0_0)

[SoothingDave]

We need not intend to procreate, but we should be open to the possibility.

That's what I told you was my intent when I had my vasectomy done. How it is sin when I have that attitude, but not sin when you do?

How exactly are you "open to procreation" when you have altered your body to ensure that your sperm never leave your body? You have distorted the normal functioning of your body.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Methuselah ate what he found on his plate

So from your pictures does this means your going to be even fater old old old man? :)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

The carcass is a living form until it dies, then only the spirit lives on either with God or in Separation from him. Either way, there is death of the body and death of the spirit. If I reference death of the body, you equate it with death of the spirit as a dodge. If I clarify, you seperate them again. It's called a mind game - ie confusion. Doesn't work with me.

You are the confused one. You know darn well we refer to our living saints and mean their spirit which is alive. And then you refer to digging up your grandma's body. You project well the exact fallacies your embrace.

SD

[ELS]

My wish is that, despite our stark differences, we can all treat each other with respect.

Amen!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Does this mean that "heavy petting", even to the verge of the male orgasm, is okay, provided that you then stop and "seed is not spilled"? Is a female orgasm sinful if not caused by coitus?

Time for another "smoke" I have no kids at home. :)

BigMack

[IMRight]

So from your pictures does this means your going to be even fater old old old man? :)

Did I ever mention that your tact overwhelms me? :)

Probably not. Just keeping up with these two kids (and my reduced calorie intake taking time to try to get them to eat their food) is having a minor positive effect on me. I'll probably get better (less fat for the tact-challenged) until soccer/football/whatever practice is out of them (i.e. when they go to college).

[ksen]

And the guy with the vasectomey could, too. Doesn't mean they aren't placing artificial barriers in the way. NFP places no artificial barriers in the way.

So now the line is an "artificial barrier"? Before it was intent, but now you have moved on to "artificial barrier". There is no "barrier" between my wife and I.

In this sense the condom wearer or the vasectomeied is not engaged in a true unitive giving of oneself. they are deliberatley holding back.

Whoops, almost forgot ***WARNING***

The only thing that is being held back is sperm. Is that what makes it sin? Because there is no sperm deposited during the final act there is sin?

Come on now. Actually I think we have gone as far, if not further, than good taste would dictate on this subject. ;^)

I am willing to disagree agreeably with you on this one.

-Kevin

[ksen]

You have said more than I think you meant.

Uh, oh. What did I say?

-Kevin

[malakhi]

NFP places no artificial barriers in the way.

A thermometer is not "natural" either. You are using a specific procedure to determine fertility times, and deliberately avoiding intercourse during those times. This is at least arguably artificial.

they are deliberatley holding back.

So is the person who refuses to have sex because the thermometer says today is a "fertile" day.

You seem to want to have it both ways. Part of the argument for NFP is that it is reportedly 95-99% effective. And yet you decry the use of artificial means of accomplishing the same end because they are not open to new life. Suppose condoms have a 90% effectiveness rate. One could argue that using condoms is more "open to new life" than using NFP, because the failure rate is higher.

[ksen]

How exactly are you "open to procreation" when you have altered your body to ensure that your sperm never leave your body? You have distorted the normal functioning of your body.

How exactly are you "open to procreation" when you have altered the timing of your sexual encounters to ensure that there will not be an egg present to fertilize?

You know, I'm surprised that Mack has stayed out of this conversation. ;^)

-Kevin