Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'd tear it up. Our life derives from His words - not how He looks. We are to worship him in Spirit and truth the physical form has nothing to do with either. As Christians we seek substance, not form. IE, we seek spiritual truth, not physical. Our spiritual life is the one that matters in the end as our physical life is only temporary.
Two week all paid vacation to Hawaii. :)
BigMack
Like I said before - leave it to you guys to be amazed that a word which is used to mean eating, actually by definition encompasses all the things involved in eating - how shocking.
You have the right idea in using the materials at your disposal such as Strongs, the Greek, etc. But a careful reading of the Greek makes a clear distinction between what trogo means and what other words for eating mean. And the Greek is clear - trogo means more than just "eating". And that is because the English language and the years have "worn down" the richness and real meanings of the Scriptures, so that subtle but important differences start to appear. Hell is no longer Hell, but "Hades" or the "netherworld", etc. Such "interpretation" profanes the word of God, from this perspective.
One must check, and check again to make sure that what we believe can be found in Scripture. Catholicism embraces that as well, as well as the responsibility given to the Church to carry on the work of Christ. But when one goes back to the early works and finds things they do not like, they must not toss them to the winds, in favor of Scripture that is pleasing to them, and not in accordance with what God wants, and indeed demands.
My criterion is that they are the scriptures canonized by the sages. Their criteria were that the works were written in Hebrew and met the requirements for prophecy. Jewish teaching is that true prophecy ceased after most Jews were no longer living in Eretz Israel. So the last recognized prophet was Malachi (around 400 BCE, I think). The books of Maccabees are considered of historical interest, but are not considered canonical, even though they contain the basis for the holiday of Chanukah.
You're a sick and twisted dreamer. :-)
I'm trying to stay away from flood geology debates here, but I'll give you a couple of thoughts from the faith angle. My apologies if the following is disjointed at all. I also add my usual caveat - there are as many Orthodox that believe in a literal global flood as there are NC's and RC's that do so. My belief about whether a global flood occurred 4000 years ago is not "Orthodox doctrine."
As an Orthodox Christian part of my Christian path includes wrestling with the Orthodox Tradition as well as with God. Part of this Tradition is that the Old Testament can only be understood properly in light of the New Testament. The Orthodox approach to Scripture includes seeing Old Testament writings as primarily supportive of New Testament revelations.
For example, it is more important to see the Passover account of Exodus as an articulation of the events of Christ's Passion than to to see it as an event of the Hebrew people. It is more important to see the Flood waters that both kill and give life as a foreshadowing of the Baptismal waters that give true life. And so on.
The true nature of the Eucharist is much more central to my personal salvation than the true nature of the flood story. While it is wonderful and beneficial to study the Old Testament, it is in a way "extra credit." The importance of the Old Testament pales in comparison to the New. We simply must know about Jesus Christ, and His Way. This is the center of Christian life.
Also, the Orthodox Tradition also includes reflections by various writers, such as St. Basil, that speak of the accounts of Creation and of the Flood as first and foremost representative and not literal.
Also, the manner in which the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Our Lord is understood in Orthodoxy as first and foremost a mystical Truth. Meaning it is a mystery. It unites us to Christ as marriage unites a husband and wife. Two distinct entities are made one without losing their distinction. The Presence of Christ in the Eucharist speaks first and foremost about something hidden, and has always been understood as such in the Orthodox world. The flood of Noah, however, is obviously an event that if it occurred in history as described in Scripture would leave physical evidence. While obviously some disagree, the evidence does not to me appear to exist. The Presence of Christ in the Eucharist offers no such avenue to being disproven.
Because of this, a better comparison perhaps would be between the flood of Noah and Christ's physical body after the Crucifixion. Both events are potentially disprovable in a strictly physical sense. Either a global flood occurred 4000 years ago and left evidence of having occurred, or it didn't. Either the tomb is empty, or it isn't. The evidence for the flood doesn't seem to exist, so the flood must be true in another sense. The tomb is empty, so Christ is Risen!
Dave say christian believe real presence.
Dave cannot prove that - only that someone did at best
Dave say heretics doubt later.
Heretics is subjective because it is defined as uncatholic, not unscriptural.
Dave say church explain process. Dave finally talking his intelligence level too. The apostles taught something different. Because no-one understood what they were talking about, they finally had to create a doctrine that explained it hundreds of years later.. Uh, huh.
See, some of us have brains. You do the disservice of assuming we can't think. God didn't leave an incomplete Covenant that couldn't be understood by those seeking his scriptures. Those in the first century who were spiritually minded got it. Those who didn't wandered off offended and mumbling, cursed them, called them blasphemers and all sort of other nonsense. The most easily offended are the "intellectuals" and the "religious" because they always know better that their philosophies on the subject are far superior because they think themselves smart or wise. When such wisdom tells us a building is the pillar of truth, it is understandable why they don't want questions asked and those who can give answers "officially" are unavailable and have no comment. Perhaps in ten years, one might see an answer expressed in an infallible council which they can then fault for all their later ills as I've seen people do with regard to Vatican II. Scuse me while I go snicker for a few..
You - I'd tear it up.
Thank you for the forthright answer. This highlights for me quite clearly the difference between your understanding of Jesus Christ and mine. May God bless you and keep you.
I thought everyone would appreciate it. I should have recorded it as a wave for my network signon at home. LOL.
I have made the point previously that many Christians view the Hebrew scriptures as some sort of long and tedious preface to the gospels. But I have seldom seen someone embrace this viewpoint so forthrightly. Why even bother with the Hebrew scriptures, then? Why take the trouble to try to make the Hebrew scriptures fit the interpretation laid upon them by the Christian scriptures? Why not just follow Marcion's lead and excise them from your Bible? It wouldn't change your beliefs any, and it would return sole custody of the Hebrew scriptures to the Jews. Whaddya say?
Empirically prove that the tomb is empty.
Wow... Good reading, but I don't think the Roman Catholic Church absorbs like that. The writer must be confused with some of the Protestant folks, who have denominations that cross the Commandments of God often, using such explanations as "we need to be all inclusive"...
I will preface my remarks by saying I am not trying to belittle you deeply held beliefs, but merely to show the absurdity of your argument.
When Jesus used the divine "I AM" when he stated "I am the door", did He instantly turn into wood or did all the doors become God?
Yeah, them dumb old Jews just got in the way in Gods over all plan, to bad the inquisition didn't get rid of more of them. /sarcasm off/
BigMack
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