The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[SoothingDave]

The only “brothers” that Jesus had were fellow believers.

His mother's sons were what???

Um, non-existent?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 37629

It isn't necessary to read minds in order to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. If the birth rate in "Catholic" Italy is among the lowest in the western world I will assume "Catholic" Italians practice birth control. It is up to you to convince me that Italians as well as Catholics in the United States are either sterile or have invented a new method of "natural rythm". This one, one that works. It sure as hell didn't work in my day.

So what? Does that mean that birth control is OK? Does it mean the Church's teaching isn't True? What is the point of this little non sequitur of yours? That sinful people negate teachings?

SD

[SoothingDave]

The grape juice is used because the scripture said "The fruit of the vine", and not specifically fermented wine, and the fermentation process is the same type of contamination in the wine, as the leavening is in bread dough, so they prefer it to be pure fruit of the vine, and not defiled in any way.

Yeah, right. So much damage done to the plain meaning of the words used in Scripture. First "wine" doesn't mean "wine," then "This is my body" means "This is a symbol of my body." When will the madness end?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 88

We use the Gregorian rather than the Julian calendar to track holy days. The Julian is one of the RC innovations that you and the other NC's like to rail against. I'm surprised you don't go off them about it more. We're still in the midst of Lent, and Orthodox Pascha isn't until May 5.

Hey, nice to see ya. I think you got that backwards, Chief. It could be the starvation setting in. ;-)

I think you'll find the Latins followed Pope Gregory when he changed the calendar, while the Greeks kept the old Julian calendar.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The general ideas accord with my understanding, even if the details are beyond my learning at this time.

Flatulent garrulity. :)

BigMack

[Mr. Lucky]

Look, I'm a protestant so I don't want to make a bigger deal out of this than it actually is (to my church, at least), but the earliest councils of the Church affirmed the belief that Mary was "ever a virgin". (The council of Constantinople was held 1,000 years prior to the Reformation).

The virginity of Mary is mentioned, by my count, five separate times in the Bible: once in the Old Testament and four times in the New. While many view these passages to imply that Mary later knew Joseph carnally, others of us read them to support the claim that she remained a virgin. Luther believed that Christ, after his death and resurrection, would not have entrusted his Mother to the care of the Disciple John were there other children of Mary.

I give this brief explanation, not to pick a fight, but to explain the basis for the Lutheran point of view.

[SoothingDave]

The Orthodox do observe an Advent fast from mid-November until Christmas - a mini-Lent, with many of the same restrictions. Do the Catholics also?

We observe the 4 weeks (more or less) before Christmas as "Advent," a season of preparation and longing. It is not nearly as penitential as Lent, but is still a period of soul searching and preparing. There is no ritual fast or abstinance.

SD

[ksen]

Does wine HAVE to mean an alcoholic drink?

-ksen

[SoothingDave]

Hey, Mr. Lucky, welcome to the thread. We have lacked for some time a perspective that is "mainline" Protestant, like your Lutheranism.

SD

[Mr. Lucky]

Dave, perhaps you can expand (or maybe expound) a little on the distinction between reference to "brothers" of Christ in scripture and the lack of any reference to "sons" of Mary other than Jesus. I like to think of myself as an expert on several things, but nuances of Greek, as written, and Aramaic, as spoken, are not among them.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Since a statue of Mary is not an idol, this would be presumption on your part.

Main Entry: idol

Pronunciation: 'I-d&l

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French idole, from Late Latin idolum, from Greek eidOlon image, idol; akin to Greek eidos form -- more at IDYLL

Date: 13th century

1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god

2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : PRETENDER, IMPOSTOR

3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance

4 : an object of extreme devotion ; also : IDEAL 2

5 : a false conception : FALLACY

But what the hech does Webester know anyway?

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

Does wine HAVE to mean an alcoholic drink?

Yes. Before refrigeration there was no way to keep fresh juices and such. They would have been fermented as a storage technique.

Even 200 years ago, when this area was the frontier, beer, cider, and whiskey would have been the common drinks for everyone, including children. Water sources could not always be trusted.

SD

[Havoc]

Since a statue of Mary is not an idol,..

Sorry; but, it is. And praying to it, revering it, giving it gifts or ornament, burning candles, singing to it, etc. are worship. A statue is no less an idol because of terminology, than worship Action is less worship because you say "venerate". But you do your side it's due - lawyers all. That was the problem with the old priesthood - understanding the letter of the law and completely blind to the spirit.

Scripture swats your doctrines and time after time you come back with them. The Bible Says Countless times that communication with the dead is forbidden in many different forms. This is not a matter of question among the Jews. Furthermore, The old testament tells us flatly that the dead have no part in anything that happens with the living after they die. That is in no way unclear. Further the Bible states that you are to abstain even from the appearance of evil. And lastly, all that failing, if it give offence to your brother and cause him to stumble, you are to abstain from it. On all counts, *all*, you are in rebellion against the Holy Word of God. Explain it to God - tell Him how, despite appearances, you really are keeping His word and following His word. I didn't check my brain at the keyboard. I ain't buyin it and I ain't half as smart as God.

"Let's go, you're under arrest.."
"But I haven't done anything wrong.."
"Oh, really? Attempted murder isn't wrong these days?"
"It wasn't Attempted murder, I was only trying to shoot him through the heart. It was target practice"
"Target practice, eh? Remember that "anything you say can be used against you in a court of law" part of what I read you??"
"So. It isn't attempted murder because I didn't intend to kill him."
"Keep it up and we won't need a prosecutor, we'll just take you before the judge and let you run your mouth - you'll convict yourself."

[american colleen]

That's interesting, because my mother in law (an Evangelical Lutheran) a few months ago told my Catholic kids that Mary had other children. I had to go through a big study on the Gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke and John to show them that "brothers" meant followers of Jesus (although not necessarily disciples) and I gave my work to my mother in law - haven't heard her response yet but she did say she was going to check it with her pastor. I also included some writings of Martin Luther regarding his belief in the Virgin Mary - I haven't heard her response to that either.

[Wordsmith]

You are Flatly not allowed to commune with the dead.

The saints are alive with God, who is God of the living.

Joh 5:25 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

[Havoc]

I think it can reasonably be assumed that The author of these words was agnostic about life after death and should be read only because he still gives good advise for living this life.

So your answer to the Word of the Living God is to drop trau and wet on His words when they don't suit you. Counting ten. BBL.

[Wordsmith]

I think you got that backwards, Chief.

Thanks, I always get that messed up. Gregorian calendar goes with the folks who do Gregorian chant. Need to remember that! :)

[SoothingDave]

Christmas has become hightly commercialized, but many store doors/ government offices are closed on Chirstmas Day. Wall Street still observes Good Friday, but not the US Government.

As I said to the wife on Good Friday, "C'mon let's go to the post office and state store and laugh at the govt' employees."

The point being that GF is the only holiday that has regular people off and govt people working.

SD

[Wordsmith]

Luther believed that Christ, after his death and resurrection, would not have entrusted his Mother to the care of the Disciple John were there other children of Mary.

Thanks, I didn't know this. It's a major article in the Orthodox belief in her perpetual virginity as well.

[trad_anglican]

Even 200 years ago, when this area was the frontier, beer, cider, and whiskey would have been the common drinks for everyone, including children.

That was also true 150 years ago when my this area was the frontier. It must have been nasty stuff, though. Fermented with whatever yeasts happened by and drunk at room temperature. Beer was considered good for settling the stomach. Now there's a form of homeopathy I can live with!