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To: father_elijah
Do you have a better definition of love father?
Yes, I do. Look at Jesus' crucified upon the cross and see how much He loves us.

I take it then that you do believe Paul was in error when he defined love of neighbor as:

Rom 13:9 For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

And you disagree with Christ himself when he said:

Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.

And with John when he said:

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.

I'm not trying to be pushy here, I'm just genuinely curious if you really disagree with what's being said here.

2,191 posted on 04/08/2002 8:37:38 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
To unpack this, I would want to begin with the word "command" and the word "commandments" and how they relate to the Hebrew word "torah" and the understand of God's commandments as "Teaching" or "Instruction" rather than legal code.

I normally read the New Testament in Arabic because of my work. For example, in the Arabic translation of "Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." if I were to translate back into English it would read "He who holds fast to what I have taught you and thereby lives out my teaching, he is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me, My Father will love, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." This sense is really throughout the New Testament in Arabic, Hebrew or the very old Syriac and Chaldean lectionaries in Aramaic and Chaldean.

I know this must sound like it is coming from another planet, but it is a way of thinking that is as old as the Negev. In short, the New Testament references to obeying or obedience to commandments could just as easily be translated differently -- as they in fact are in most Semitic and north African languages. And I would underscore that the Torah of God is not so much a legal code for men as it is a divine instruction to God's people that is fulfilled and manifested in earnest in Jesus Christ.

2,195 posted on 04/08/2002 8:54:13 PM PDT by father_elijah
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To: DouglasKC
You can look at this a different way, I think. Take Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. To me this means that fulfillment of the commandments comes from love; not that fulfillment of the law defines love. In Romans 13:9 You shall love your neighbor as yourself results in the commandments metioned earlier in the passage being kept; not that keeping the commandments defines love.

It is the same with John 14:21 and 1John 5. He who loves God keeps the commandments.

Just my 2 cents.

2,199 posted on 04/08/2002 9:11:13 PM PDT by Titanites
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