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FOR THOSE WHO HATE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (and especially for Catholics who need some inspiration)
http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/challenge.html ^

Posted on 04/13/2002 7:13:03 AM PDT by NYer

Ask yourself: why do I hate the Catholic Church? Who taught me what I think I know about the Catholic Church? Is what I was taught true? Have I looked at what the Catholic Church has to say about itself, using official resources such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church and papal encyclicals? Could my opinion of the Catholic Church possibly be based on bias, bigotry, bad history, propaganda from the secular media, or the bad priests who get publicity (i.e., the sick, and sickening, pedophile priests or those certain heretical modernist priests the secular media love to give press to)? Is it fair to judge doctrine by such things? Is any group with human beings in it free from sin and scandal? If I am wrong about the Catholic Church, what does that mean?

Here are some common myths about the Catholic Church:
 

Because Catholics reject the tradition of "sola fide" ("faith alone"), they think they can work their way into Heaven and believe they are saved by works
Catholics think the pope does not sin
Catholics re-crucify Christ at their Masses (or at least think they do)
Catholics think Mary is part of the Godhead and is to be worshipped
Catholics worship statues
Catholics think they can't pray to God directly but have to go through saints
Catholics conjure the dead
Catholics believe people can be saved after they die
The Catholic Church teaches that one who isn't formally a Catholic is damned to Hell
The Crusades are an example of Catholic aggression
The Inquisition(s) killed hundreds of thousands of people and targeted Jews
Pope Pius XII was "Hitler's Pope" and didn't do a thing to help Jews during WWII
The Catholic Church wasn't around until the time of Constantine, a pagan who controlled the Church. The Catholic Church did more than baptize pagan calendar days for the good of Christ, it is pagan in its very roots.

If you believe any of the above myths, I implore you to research. For doctrinal questions, ask the Church what it teaches; it's the only fair thing to do. For historical questions, look at balanced and objective scholarly research from a variety of sources (including Catholic ones).

And as you research, keep in mind the common logical fallacies that are often used in attacks against Catholicism:

Generalization:
"I knew a Catholic/ex-Catholic (or I was a Catholic) who was (mean, a drunk, not holy, didn't like the Church, was superstitious, didn't know the Bible, didn't have a deep relationship with Jesus, etc.), so therefore, the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong." (Ignores the fact that bad catechesis, miunderstandings, or other shortcomings of a few Catholics do not reflect on what the Catholic Church teaches)

Bifurcation:
"If the Catholic Church doesn't teach that it's faith alone that saves, then it must teach that men are saved by their own works." (Ignores that we teach that we are saved by Grace alone -- a Grace with which we must cooperate through "faith that works in love")

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc:
"Winter Solstice is on 21 December; Christmas is 25 December. Therefore, Christmas is a pagan holiday. (Ignores that fact that there are only 365 days to choose from in a year and that the early Church Fathers had good reasons to choose the date they did. It also ignores that Protestants' "Reformation Day" is celebrated on 31 October, the pagan festival of Samhain.)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc:
"Constantine must have been the real source of the Catholic Church's teachings because after his reign the Church grew tremendously, and before his reign it wasn't as well-known" (Ignores the simple fact that Constantine merely stopped the persecution of Christians with the Edict of Milan and allowed Christianity to spread. It also ignores the writings of the Church Fathers who lived before Constantine -- and who were Catholic.)

Straw man:
"You guys worship statues, and that's evil. Therefore, your religion is Satanic." (Ignores that fact that we don't worship statues)

Meanwhile: The Final Challenge

... and now I challenge my brothers and sisters in Christ to take two hours of your life to listen to theologian and former Presbyterian minister Scott Hahn and to Rosalind Moss, who was raised Jewish and later became Evangelical. Both are now 100% Catholic; don't you want to know why? Truly, I challenge you to listen and pray and think about what you hear, all with an open heart to God's will.

Real Audio: Listen to Scott Hahn tell his story
Real Audio: Listen to Rosalind Moss tell her story

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Think the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon," full of spiritually dead statue-worshippers? Think the very earliest Christian Church 'services' were more like those of modern Evangelicals or Pentecostals rather than a sacrificial Mass? Perhaps you will find some answers here.
1 posted on 04/13/2002 7:13:04 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Thanks for posting this. I doubt most will take the time to do the proper research suggested in the article. But one person may... so it's worth it!
2 posted on 04/13/2002 7:23:09 AM PDT by grumpster-dumpster
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To: NYer
Bump - Scott Hahn is amazing!
3 posted on 04/13/2002 7:23:59 AM PDT by NewCenturions
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To: NYer
Thank you for posting this. I had never heard the expression, "whore of Babylon" until I came on FR, along with the slurs against the Church.

Upon entering University (Catholic), I had many questions about my faith, but with mentoring and classes, my faith grew deeper.

I do believe some resentment is an outcropping from the time when the Church taught it was the only true religion. A nun actually told me that if one were not baptized Catholic, one would not go to Heaven. I knew this wasn't true, and I was only 6.

4 posted on 04/13/2002 7:30:53 AM PDT by Angelique
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To: NYer
Thanks for posting this! Unfortunately, if the vast, vast majority of those who attack The Church actually did any research before hand, they wouldn’t have an argument to begin with.

Still, it’s a good reminder for the Faithful amongst us to brush up on the facts so that we can be better prepared to defend The Church.

God Bless,

Owl _ Eagle
“Guns before butter.”

5 posted on 04/13/2002 7:33:34 AM PDT by South Hawthorne
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To: NYer
I'm sorry to say that your post is wrong from the start. Just because you say the Catholic doctrines say one thing that it is how the Catholic congregation thinks and believes. the real test is to look at and listen to the average Catholic, and there you will see evidence of what you call "myths". When Catholics I know endlessly Talk of Mary and How Holy and special she is (Which I happen to agree with) But They do it to the Exclusion of Christ that is evidence that They are holding Her up Higher than Christ. So there is truth to the Myth. When Catholics talk of doing Pennance to pay for sins, They are reflecting what they have learned from their Priests or fellow Catholics. So again, Truth to your list of Myths. On Tv I watched a debate with a Catholic Representative and a Protestant and the Catholic priest was saying the Catholic Church believes that Mary is Co-redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix with Christ ( Both False and Un-Biblical). You may be able to prove that the Catholic Church doesnt hold these positions on Paper, but the proof is in the words and deeds of the followers. Christ should live in your heart and not in the Dust of bad Doctrine.
6 posted on 04/13/2002 7:36:50 AM PDT by LtKerst
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To: NYer
"I firmly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful. I likewise hold that the saints reigning together with Christ should be honored and invoked, that they offer prayers to God on our behalf, and that their relics should be venerated. I firmly assert that images of Christ, of the Mother of God ever Virgin, and of the other saints should be owned and kept, and that due honor and veneration should be given to them. I affirm that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the Church by Christ, and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians." -- Tridentine Profession of Faith

This statement alone shows multiple instances of Catholic Theology / tradition that go beyond Scripture and distort the gospel.

7 posted on 04/13/2002 7:40:14 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
I don't have any problems with the Catholic faith. I believe they are Christians just like I am a Christian. I have never said the Catholic faith is flawed. I do wonder why the Catholics are not forcing Pedophiles, homosexuals and, Abortion advocates out of the church leadership. I wonder the same thing about the methodists, presbyterians, Unitarians, and many other denominations who are also Christian. I have never believed any of those fallicies about Catholics listed in this article.
8 posted on 04/13/2002 7:45:53 AM PDT by Khepera
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To: NYer
Thank you for posting this message!! My issue isn't with Catholics, it was with the Vatican. My issue was regarding the condemnation of Israel and what I perceived as a lack of one with the current crisis in the Church. However, I would like to state that ELS sent me the "official" word rather than what we've gotten here in the States. I hope more people read this. Perhaps, the best healing process for everyone would be to stand firm in prayer and let God do what he needs to do. God Bless everyone!! Going out today to rally in support of Israel. Double Bump!
9 posted on 04/13/2002 7:50:01 AM PDT by MoJo2001
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To: NYer
Instead of worrying about "those who hate the Catholic Church" it would be more productive to worry about the child molesters and other perverts in the church and kick their butts the hell out of there.

Now is not the time to be so vain and self-righteous about being a Catholic. Now is the time to be humble and admit there is a big problem with sexual perverts becoming church leaders -- and then do something to change it. Don't give any more money when the collection plate is passed, for example. Protest. Demand something is done.

10 posted on 04/13/2002 7:55:06 AM PDT by Born in a Rage
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To: NYer
I'm still listening to Scott... maybe I'll comment later...
11 posted on 04/13/2002 7:57:20 AM PDT by OHelix
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To: NYer
Thanks. Hope you can get to St Peter's tomorrow.
12 posted on 04/13/2002 7:59:53 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: LtKerst
I think you are making a the mistake of taking what a few catholics do and say as representitive of the entire church. I would never try to claim that all Protestent are nuts because Jim Jones' followers all drank poisen kool-aid.

The Mary is God BS comes from a few feminests, who would like to see priestesses in the church.

13 posted on 04/13/2002 8:04:19 AM PDT by Calculus_of_Consent
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To: NYer
As a Catholic who is getting his doctorate from Protestant University, I find most of my protestant professors becoming more and more Catholic. For example their liturgies have more symbolism, deeper appreciation for the Eucharist, many are asking the question maybe we should have stayed within the church, a greater appreciation for visible unity, the list goes on. I'm not saying they're going to become Catholic, but they would never for example say that Catholics worship statues or that th epope is the anti-Christ, etc. My advisor, reads St. thomas Aquinas everyday. I find both Catholics and Protestants as a rule more open to each others traditions. The walls are coming down. Once, us Catholics become more serious and have a deeper relationship with Christ, we will see more Protestants taking Catholicism seriously. There is a lot of dead wood within the Church. As a rule I like to hang around Evangelical christian because they keep me honest and on fire for Christ. As the John PAull II has stated the Protestant reformation will make the Church better. Yes, Scott Hahn is great, we neeed more Catholics like him. This is a great post. Happy Easter.
14 posted on 04/13/2002 8:11:49 AM PDT by MagnusMat
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To: NYer
thanks!

Great article...

I am a Catholic who has more than once run into Catholic bashing...

ignorance runs deep in some and they have decided that the way to heaven is to bash Catholics and the like...

trust in Jesus - the light is eternal...

God Bless!

15 posted on 04/13/2002 8:13:20 AM PDT by krodriguesdc
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To: NYer
Thanks for the interesting read. I've lost a lot of faith in Free Republic over the last year or so since I started reading the Catholic threads. I can't believe how many lowlifes there are lurking around here with their low-grade Jack Chick beliefs (real trailer park, big-tent revival, Kentucky Fried televangelist stuff) beliefs. A real eye-opener.
16 posted on 04/13/2002 8:16:44 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: NYer
Think the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon," full of spiritually dead statue-worshippers? Think the very earliest Christian Church 'services' were more like those of modern Evangelicals or Pentecostals rather than a sacrificial Mass? Perhaps you will find some answers here.

The "Whore of Boston" is certainly Cardinal Law.

Yes, I do believe the Catholic Church in the USA at least is nigh unto being spritiually dead. I see people taking communion, then walking right out of church before the benediction.

I have sat in a Catholic church and listened to the priest talk about how he couldn't write a letter of reference for a couple moving to a new parish because he couldn't find any record of their monetary contributions since they didn't use the envelopes.

And if you really wanted to talk about early Christianity you would be talking about the Orthodox church, or the Waldensians.

17 posted on 04/13/2002 8:17:18 AM PDT by ikka
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To: NYer
The problem that I have with the Catholic Church is not specific to the Catholic Church. Large centralized governmental bureaucracies do not serve a church anymore than they serve a nation. The Catholic Church is not the only denomination to be failed by its bureaucracy. People of strong Christian faith can be found in almost any denomination. The problem is, it is hard to keep the faith and at the same time swim against the stream of these large church government bureaucracies.
18 posted on 04/13/2002 8:18:37 AM PDT by Biblebelter
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To: NYer
The thing that has never ceased to amaze me is that anti-Catholics defame us by saying we worship statues, saints, and Mary. They say that the Church teaches this, and quote articles, essays, and books that support their point. Yet, we Catholics deny it to them. Therefore, we've just denied our beliefs and profaned our "gods." Why would we do that? Why would be ashamed of our beliefs? If we believe in statues, Mary, and saints, why wouldn't we prostelytize this? Why not go to the rooftops and shout it out loud for the world to hear? What do we have to gain by hiding our beliefs? What motivation could there be?

At least the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists don't hide their unorthodox, non-Christian beliefs. They proclaim them, because they believe them to be true. The Witnesses have no problem saying they believe Jesus is just the Archangel Michael in another guise and that they are Unitarian in their beliefs. They don't teach it in private, and then tell people that they really are Trinitarians and that what they may have heard is just a nasty rumor. The Adventists are the same. They believe in worship on the Saturday You don't see them going to Church on Sunday just to fool the Fundamentalists. Why? What would they have to gain by it?

Think about it, Fundies. What do any of these churches, including the Catholic Church, have to gain by hiding or lying about our core beliefs to Fundamentalists? Isn't that really silly?
19 posted on 04/13/2002 8:25:09 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: NYer
Interesting post.

I have a few questions. I ask them humbly, and politely, hoping to gain a few answers. These are things I've heard and read along the way:

1.) Do Catholics reject sola fide? If so, what are the terms of salvation according to Catholicism? Is it achieved thru the sancraments?

2.) How often does the Pope speak ex cathedra? Is he held to be inerrant by the Catholic church when he speaks in such a matter? What matters has he addressed ex cathedra?

3.) Which are authoritative to the Catholic, tradition or Scripture, or both. If the two conflict, which takes priority?

4.) Can you give Biblical support for praying to dead saints as intercessors for us, and not praying directly to the Savior why died for us?

5.) What is the Biblical support for the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate conception of Mary? Her sinlessness ?(contra. Lu 1:47-- where Mary identifies Christ as her "Savior"-- if she were sinless, why would she need a savior?)

7.) Is the Council of Trent still in force? There is a provision that reads (though I am probably mangling the quote) "If any man holds that the Mass is not a propitiatory sacrifice, let him be anathema." I dont believe the mass to be a re-sacrifice, so am I damned?

20 posted on 04/13/2002 8:25:45 AM PDT by jude24
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To: LtKerst
When Catholics I know endlessly Talk of Mary and How Holy and special she is (Which I happen to agree with) But They do it to the Exclusion of Christ that is evidence that They are holding Her up Higher than Christ... On Tv I watched a debate with a Catholic Representative and a Protestant and the Catholic priest was saying the Catholic Church believes that Mary is Co-redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix with Christ ( Both False and Un-Biblical).

I've seen this first-hand, I'll try to explain where. There is a small Charismatic movement within the Catholic Church, which is quite similar to the Pentecostals. A small group of these Charismatics are pushing to have Mary recognized as a co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix. They do not hold Mary higher than Christ, but almost as an equal. This small group is composed almost exclusively of women, and most of these women have had abortions or abusive husbands. They have admitted to me that they find it easier to worship Jesus through a woman. Unfortunately, they are a very vocal small small group, and many have left the Charismatic movement (including me) because of their insistance that Mary is co-redemtrix.

The Catholic church is loaded with very small but vocal groups that push for their point of view (pro-aborts, pro-gay, pro-woman priests, etc). There are a billion of us; there is bound to be a few nuts.

So there is truth to the Myth. When Catholics talk of doing Pennance to pay for sins, They are reflecting what they have learned from their Priests or fellow Catholics.

I've seen this as well as a religious education teacher. Sins are forgiven when the Priest gives absolution. Penance brings you back into the church community. So your sins are forgiven before you do penance, thus pennance is not required to "pay" for sins. My students realize this only after its pointed out to them. They usually reply that they thought pennance was like a punishment, like after they've broken a lamp in the house that their parents make them stay in their room for an hour. This is not a serious misconception, and I don't think it would come from a priest - its more like how we've all been brought up in this society - if you do a crime then there is a punishment.

So again, Truth to your list of Myths. You may be able to prove that the Catholic Church doesnt hold these positions on Paper, but the proof is in the words and deeds of the followers. Christ should live in your heart and not in the Dust of bad Doctrine.

I think you've fallen for the "Generalization" trap:
"I knew a Catholic/ex-Catholic (or I was a Catholic) who was (mean, a drunk, not holy, didn't like the Church, was superstitious, didn't know the Bible, didn't have a deep relationship with Jesus, etc.), so therefore, the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong." (Ignores the fact that bad catechesis, miunderstandings, or other shortcomings of a few Catholics do not reflect on what the Catholic Church teaches)

21 posted on 04/13/2002 8:40:36 AM PDT by kidd
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To: Owl_Eagle
You can really tell when they've done no research. They use lots of "obviously" and "of course" and "it's clear that" in their arguments.

Most of them read from the same two books, A Woman Rides the Beast by Dave Hunt and Roman Catholicismby somebody-or-other. They also have to inject a lot of sarcasm and vitriol into their arguments to flesh them out.

I don't think more than 5% of them have ever had advanced education where one has to learn what makes a good argument and how to compose one.
22 posted on 04/13/2002 8:43:44 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: NYer
Okay, I just finished listening to Scott Hahn, and I'm not sure why you put the link up... I was expecting him to address the issues which you addressed in your post, and the only issues he addressed in any specifics were the doctrines of solo fide and solo scriptus, which neither, I believe, is a deliniating doctrine of Catholics vs Protestants (although, I believe they are very much deliniating between what I would call Calvanism vs. Catholicism, so I understand his point with reference to his background... But even that is arguably a false dichotomy).

He refered to his own experience of being presented with unanswerable answers which support the Catholic Church, but never said what these unanswerable answers were. He basically told a story about how what people told him, or what he read or studied, was so convincing that he could not deny the truth, but without sharing with the audience what these convincing arguments or revelations were. Therefore I have to say this lacks any apologetic substance at all, which it why I thought you posted it.

Unless you can give me some assurance the second link would be different, I feel like it would be a waste of my time to listen to it. (I don't mean to sound insulting, but I was sincerely hoping for "doctrinal apologetic substance"). However, if you have listened to both, and understand the premis of my disappointment, and are convinced that the second would be worth my attention, I will listen to it on your recomendation.

23 posted on 04/13/2002 8:45:55 AM PDT by OHelix
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To: jude24
A Searchable Catholic Catechism can be found at:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Scroll to the bottom to find the search engine

24 posted on 04/13/2002 8:53:53 AM PDT by kidd
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To: NYer
I used to consider Boston's Law a hero for his pro-life stand. (Didn't know him personally, only went by media reports.) Now it seems he is a world-class enabler of these abusive homosexual priests. (Don't know him personally, only going by media reports--including lots of articles by Catholics.) Why don't they get rid of him? It's an abomination. And by the way, Council of Trent Section 6 says, "Whosoever shall affirm that men are justified solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ... let him be accursed." Amazing! They'll have to start with the Apostle Paul!!
25 posted on 04/13/2002 8:53:53 AM PDT by hello2U
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: jude24
Can you give Biblical support for praying to dead saints as intercessors for us, and not praying directly to the Savior why died for us?

I have to run so I'll do this really fast. "Dead saints" are alive in Jesus. As part of the 'communion of saints', they are the 'Church Triumphant'. In heaven they want to aid those of us on earth by adding their prayers to ours.

Please consider that the use of the word 'pray' in this context has changed over the centuries. In Shakespeare's time the word "prithee", was a contraction for 'I pray thee'. Were all those people in Shakespear's time praying to each other?

At that time, 'I pray thee', was obviously used as a request, (I request thee, I ask thee).

In our own time you have heard someone say, "And what, pray tell, do you mean by that"? Is the questioner praying to the listener?

In common Catholic usage to 'pray to' St. So and So is simply asking that person who is alive in Jesus to add his/her prayers to yours (I ask you, I request you, I pray you...). This is not unlike asking a friend to pray for you or someone else. The Bible tells us to pray for each other in many places, does it not?

I know this is barebones, but we must do our taxes this weekend so I must run. Before I do I will ask St. Matthew (taxman) to pray that we get them done quickly and accurately so I may come back to the boards.

27 posted on 04/13/2002 9:02:01 AM PDT by pbear8
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To: jude24
Can you give Biblical support for praying to dead saints as intercessors for us, and not praying directly to the Savior why died for us?

I have to run so I'll do this really fast. "Dead saints" are alive in Jesus. As part of the 'communion of saints', they are the 'Church Triumphant'. In heaven they want to aid those of us on earth by adding their prayers to ours.

Please consider that the use of the word 'pray' in this context has changed over the centuries. In Shakespeare's time the word "prithee", was a contraction for 'I pray thee'. Were all those people in Shakespear's time praying to each other?

At that time, 'I pray thee', was obviously used as a request, (I request thee, I ask thee).

In our own time you have heard someone say, "And what, pray tell, do you mean by that"? Is the questioner praying to the listener?

In common Catholic usage to 'pray to' St. So and So is simply asking that person who is alive in Jesus to add his/her prayers to yours (I ask you, I request you, I pray you...). This is not unlike asking a friend to pray for you or someone else. The Bible tells us to pray for each other in many places, does it not?

I know this is barebones, but we must do our taxes this weekend so I must run. Before I do I will ask St. Matthew (taxman) to pray that we get them done quickly and accurately so I may come back to the boards.

28 posted on 04/13/2002 9:02:12 AM PDT by pbear8
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To: Lithasis
Nice artical however it still will not change the church's fate. A done deal's a done deal. The Catholic church is doomed.

Is this meant to be sarcasm?

Since you have trouble spelling, the only way I can interpret your reply is thus: Nice article....The catholic church (presumably St Peter's in Rome) is domed (i.e. has a dome)...

29 posted on 04/13/2002 9:05:25 AM PDT by LadyDoc
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To: Angelique
The Church hierarchy is its own worst enemy.

I wonder if the high rate of "fallen" Catholics is more due to the earnest, but incompetent, teachers of the catechism. I remember all the crazy things nuns and priests would say, focusing more on our sinfulness than on the loving nature of our relationship with God.

Only in my 40's did I, on my own, rebuild my belief structure and reconcile with the Church.

30 posted on 04/13/2002 9:06:10 AM PDT by Procyon
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To: drstevej
"I firmly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful. I likewise hold that the saints reigning together with Christ should be honored and invoked, that they offer prayers to God on our behalf, and that their relics should be venerated. I firmly assert that images of Christ, of the Mother of God ever Virgin, and of the other saints should be owned and kept, and that due honor and veneration should be given to them. I affirm that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the Church by Christ, and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians." -- Tridentine Profession of Faith

This statement alone shows multiple instances of Catholic Theology / tradition that go beyond Scripture and distort the gospel.

Your post alone shows perfectly the uninformed, embryonic reasoning of most Protestants about the Catholic faith. So you think just saying the Church "distort[s] the gospel" makes it so, sparky?

Let's do a little point-by-point reasoning:

>"I firmly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Go read 2 Maccabees 12:43-46. The soldiers made an offering for their dead compatriates to speed them into Heaven. It reads:

"He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."

Also see Revelations 21:27 which states that nothing unclean may enter into Heaven. Which means there is some sort of cleansing process. Catholics are supposed to use critical thinking and reasoning skills to put 2 and 2 together. While the word "Purgatory" is not used, there are enough verses around the Bible to put together that neatly defines Purgatory. We are not like Protestants, who treat the Bible like a color-by-numbers coloring book and have to have everything laid out for them in big bold flashing letters like they're 4 year olds.

I firmly assert that images of Christ, of the Mother of God ever Virgin, and of the other saints should be owned and kept, and that due honor and veneration should be given to them.

A woman who suffered from bleeding touched the nem of Jesus's garment and was healed instantly. The apostles could heal. They were saints. We also believe there is nothing wrong with showing admiration by keeping a picture of a saint in our houses.

I affirm that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the Church by Christ, and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians."


All an indulgence is is an offering for the dead. What's wrong with charity as a way of helping the dead? Would you say the same if it was a good act? Or a donation of clothing? Is it just that you have a problem with monetary donations? Is money evil to you? It sure isn't evil to a lot of Evangelistic ministers, and it sure is a part of a lot of Evangelical doctrine that material gain is something that God bestows on the faithful, and is even something to pray for and aspire to (the Prayer of Jabez is just the latest example). I think that is much more anti-Christian than indulgences.
31 posted on 04/13/2002 9:14:53 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: krodriguesdc
Anti-Catholicism is the rock that many of them stand on. Sad. Of course, the rock the Anglican Church stands on is divorce. When anti-Catholicism is the basis for your religion, you've got big problems.
32 posted on 04/13/2002 9:17:05 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: MagnusMat
People look at me funny when I point out to them that really faithful people start getting more Catholic the more they learn.
33 posted on 04/13/2002 9:18:35 AM PDT by tiki
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To: ikka
And if you really wanted to talk about early Christianity you would be talking about the Orthodox church, or the Waldensians.

Interesting. Well, to talk about the Orthodox, you'd have to talk about the Catholics since one left the other. Which one depends on your beliefs but they both existed as early Christianity. One could call it Western and Eastern Christianity. But to say the Catholic Church didn't exist until 1054 is idiotic.

The Waldensians; were these one of those mythical "original evangelistic" groups that the RCC of course persecuted? If so, how could the RCC do it if it didn't exist until 1054?

34 posted on 04/13/2002 9:21:26 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Lithasis
You're back here peddling your crap? WHo told you we were doomed again? Or are you just Jesus's personal PR man? I'm sure He'll be thrilled to know you've taken that role on for yourself.
35 posted on 04/13/2002 9:26:42 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: shigure
Still beating your wife?
37 posted on 04/13/2002 9:37:51 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: shigure
If the Pope won't remove Cardinal Law right now then a mob of concerned Catholics should string the Cardinal up from a lampost.

BTW, you've been reported to the moderators for your call to violent action against priests. That, and your generally slanderous comments that Catholic laypeople condone child molestation out of our loyalty to the Church.
38 posted on 04/13/2002 9:39:05 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Macccabees is in the Apocrypha and is not a source of biblical doctrine even if the passage presented a full blown understanding of purgatory, which it does not. (A separate point for debate.) Nothing pure shall enter Heaven. Believers' sins are forgiven (Ro. 8:1) and they are clothed in His righteousness.

2 + 2 = 4 not 5, 6 or even 7!

Keep and venerate whatever you wish. I'll stick to meditatiion on the Word of God. I understand the distinction made between veneration and worship. So I do not say Catholics worship statues. I just find no biblical warrant for their veneration. I respect men and women of faith but do not see a class of saints distinct from the term saint given to all believers in the NT.

Indulgences are based upon the RC theory that there is a treasury of merit achieved by the saints that can be drawn upon for grace. The system is built upon a false premise. Thus charitable gifts may be well motivated but they are non-efficacious.

I reject prosperity theology too as do many evangelicals. Prosperity theology is not a essential doctrine of evangelicalism at all. The items included in the passage from the Tridentine Creed are de fide essentials of the Catholic faith.

As far as my embryonic understanding of Catholicism, I have a PhD in Reformation History and Theology from Westminster Seminary. I have spent time (years) reading the original source materials as well as the writings of leading Catholic and Protestant theologians.

I did not intend by the post to give a response to each of the elements of the Tridentine pronouncement, I wanted the readers of the thread to hear it from RC documents themselves. I do believe these issues distort the gospel. You do not. Fine.

I did appreciate the kind way you expressed your views -- charitably avoiding any hint of personal criticism.

39 posted on 04/13/2002 9:57:05 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Conservative til I die
You know, your provocative arguments such as "are you still beating your wife" are very thoughtful. In fact, the more you post, the more sure I am that Catholics don't have a leg to stand on. Thank you for this affirmation.
40 posted on 04/13/2002 10:02:33 AM PDT by refreshed
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To: Procyon
You are correct about being taught to fear the wrath of God, and there was no discussion of His love, although early on we recited: Who loves us. God loves us. Following in fear does not bring one closer to God.
41 posted on 04/13/2002 10:05:43 AM PDT by Angelique
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To: NYer
“The trouble with modern education is you never know how ignorant people are. With anyone over fifty you can be fairly confident what’s been taught and what’s been left out. But these young people have such an intelligent, knowledgeable surface, and then the crust suddenly breaks and you look down into depths of confusion you didn’t know existed. Take yesterday. He seemed to be doing very well. He’d learned large bits of the catechism by heart, and the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary. Then I asked him as usual if there was anything troubling him, and he looked at me in a crafty way and said, ‘Look, Father, I don’t think you’re being straight with me. I want to join your Church and I’m going to join your Church, but you’re holding too much back.’ I asked what he meant, and he said: ‘I’ve had a long talk with a Catholic -- a very pious, well-educated one, and I’ve learned a thing or two. For instance, that you have to sleep with your feet pointing East because that’s the direction of heaven, and if you die in the night you can walk there. Now I’ll sleep with my feet pointing any way that suits Julia, but d’you expect a grown man to believe about walking to heaven? And what about the Pope who made one of his horses a cardinal? And what about the box you keep in the church porch, and if you put in a pound note with someone’s name on it, they get sent to hell. I don’t say there mayn’t be a good reason for all this,’ he said, ‘but you ought to tell me about it and not let me find out for myself.’”

”What can the poor man have meant?” said Lady Marchmain.

”You see he’s a long way from the Church yet,” said Father Mowbray.

”But who can he have been talking to? Did he dream it all? Cordelia, what’s the matter?”

”What a chump! Oh, Mummy, what a glorious chump!”

”Cordelia, it was you.”

”Oh, Mummy, who could have dreamed he’d swallow it? I told him such a lot of things. About the sacred monkeys in the Vatican — all kinds of things.”

-- Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited.


42 posted on 04/13/2002 10:08:43 AM PDT by dighton
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To: NYer
I am aware of the common myths you have posted and realize they are just that - myths, insignificant at that. However, how do you explain the following more significant facts:

The Pope kissing the Koran? The RC Church's protecting the homosexual priests? The RC Church insisting on fighting against the Christian Orthodox Faith in the newly freed nations previously under the Communist yoke? The lack of apology for the Croatian Catholic genocidal regime in WWII?

C'mon explain these facts!

43 posted on 04/13/2002 10:17:52 AM PDT by eleni121
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To: drstevej
The only point I would debate with you is the idea that the verse I quoted in 2 Maccabees, assuming that you were to believe it to be Canonical, was meant to be sufficient. It was not. I was drawing on that statement, as well as Revelations 21:27, and other unmentioned verses (which I should have mentioned in retrospect) to prove the doctrine of Purgatory. Overall, the point to be taken is that Catholics do not require that a doctrine be spelled out neatly in one verse. If there are 20 verses, spread out through both the NT, OT, and what you would call the Apocrypha, which support Purgatory, then there is nothing wrong with playing connect-the-dots and putting all those verses together and defining Purgatory that way. I believe that is called reasoning in "kernel form." A kernel here, a kernel there, and it adds up.

A simplistic example would be to pretend that "Thou shallt not kill" is not enumerated as a Commandment from God. But if we were to read a verse in Exodus that says "John murdered a man for no reason and he was considered evil by God" and then read a verse from Matthew that says "The one who murders unrepentantly will perish in Hell" and then another saying that Jacob "was a good man for killing the robber who threatened his family" we could put that all together and define a doctrine about murder: if it is wrong, will someone be punished, what kinds of killing are OK and not OK, etc.
44 posted on 04/13/2002 10:19:25 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: refreshed
Boy, that one went right over your head. Woosh!

The point of asking that was to illustrate the kind of post he was making about us Catholics by starting out with the notion that us Catholics unanimously support child molesting because of slavish loyalty to the Church. Talk about false premises!
45 posted on 04/13/2002 10:21:22 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Love to see the OT and NT verses you see teaching Purgatory.

I appreciate the softer tone, too.

46 posted on 04/13/2002 10:26:11 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Conservative til I die
A simplistic example would be to pretend that "Thou shallt not kill" is not enumerated as a Commandment from God. But if we were to read a verse in Exodus that says "John murdered a man for no reason and he was considered evil by God" and then read a verse from Matthew that says "The one who murders unrepentantly will perish in Hell" and then another saying that Jacob "was a good man for killing the robber who threatened his family" we could put that all together and define a doctrine about murder: if it is wrong, will someone be punished, what kinds of killing are OK and not OK, etc.

The other side of that logic is that you can err, as many, I believe, have (myself included) and be convinced of a doctrine by jumping around and distorting the scripture, making the point that it says something it does not say, or doesn't say something it does. Peter mentioned "craftily devised fables" in his second epistle which was primarily concerning false teaching and the warning to be on guard against it (a warning/command expressed in the writings of every author of the new testament). So I agree with the premise that you can "construct" a doctrine with different scriptures which do not necesarily state that doctrine explicitly, but you can also construct very convincing false doctrines with the same method.

47 posted on 04/13/2002 10:37:19 AM PDT by OHelix
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To: kidd & ltkerst
I find your post on Mary to be quite strange. I myself am not a charismatic, although I regularly attend the Southern Regional Conference of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which draws a couple of thousand Charismatics from the South each spring. I have yet to hear one of them, or any speaker, allege that Mary is equal, or even close to equal, to Jesus. Their thelogy is very sound. They recognize that Mary is a creature,with a human nature, like all of us. Jesus is not a creature. He is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God Himself. He is a Person with two natures, one Divine and one human. Jesus took his human nature from Mary. No charismatic, or any other Catholic I have ever heard, has ever asserted that Mary is divine. If you have sources, I'd certainly like to hear them.

As far as Mary being recognized as Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix, you say that this doctrine is being pushed by feminists and those who have had abortions. You are dead wrong here, my friend. I have heard this title of Our Lady defended quite ably by such notorious feminists as Mother Angelica and Fr. Benedict Groeschel. The problem which you and many others have is semantic. When Our Lady is identified as Co-Redemptrix, this is simply an abbreviation for Cooperator in Redemption. Mary was redeemed by Christ's death on the Cross. The Church teaches that she was Immaculately Conceived (free from Original Sin) based on the foreseen merits of her son Jesus, so she actually owes even more to Jesus' redemptive sacrifice on the cross than you or I. That said, it cannot be denied that she cooperated in Jesus' redemptive work. When the Angel came to her to ask her to be the Mother of Jesus, she used her free will to say yes. (Imagine where we would be if she had said no). That is cooperation. At the Foot of the Cross, she watched her Beloved Son suffer and die. The Church Fathers tell us that her sufferings were greater than those of all the martyrs combined. Again, that is cooperation. She was present praying with the Apostles when the Holy Spirit descended upon them, the Birthday of the Church. Again, cooperation, to name but three prominent examples of Our Lady's unique coopeation in her Son's repemptive Mission. Hence, her Title abbreviated to Co-Redemptrix. It does not place her on the same level as God, but it does give her proper credit for her role in the salvation wrought by her Son.

48 posted on 04/13/2002 10:42:23 AM PDT by Brices Crossroads
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To: Born in a Rage
Instead of worrying about "those who hate the Catholic Church" it would be more productive to worry about the child molesters and other perverts in the church and kick their butts the hell out of there.

Another thing that the church might ought to worry about is WHY all these misconceptions abound. I don't beleive they are around because of catholic haters/bashers/etc. but because of the actions of catholics. When someone who doesn't understand, sees people kneeling and praying in front of a statue, lighting candles, crowning statues, bringing flowers to set in front of statues, praying to someone other then God, have an infallible leader, these "misconceptions" are understandable.

I came out of 12 yrs. of catholic school believing alot of these misconceptions, because of the actions and teachings I saw in school.

Besides, there are alot of misconceptions about what all faith's believe, but I don't see many "Prostestants" running around screaming "Protestant basher/hater." IMO, catholics just ask for misconceptions with their actions, so they should not be so quick to accuse people of bashing/hating/bigotry. It doesn't help your cause. JMO:)

Becky

49 posted on 04/13/2002 10:43:28 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: OHelix
Yes, you are right about this. It's much like a gun or the power of the atom. It can be used for both good and bad. That is why not just anyone should be allowed to go around throwing out doctrines. I believe that most Fundamentalist and Evangelical sects have no business engaging in biblical interpretation and doctrine creation. I'm not talking about what I consider the "classical" Protestant groups, like the Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, etc. They are wrong, IMO, but at least they look like they put some thought into their interpretations. A lot of these smaller F & E sects are the result of some guy or lady picking up a Bible one day and crafting verses together to support their specific belief.

For me as a Catholic, the Church is the final arbiter of Biblical interpretation. Is this slavish loyalty on the level of the Watchtower Society? I like to think not, but I can see how someone else might see it that way. To them, I would ask, if not the Vatican, then who should I be listening to on the Bible?
50 posted on 04/13/2002 10:52:33 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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