Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

God's Willingness and Man's unwillingness
MiddleTown Bible church ^ | Unknown | Unknown

Posted on 07/23/2002 9:37:27 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration

GOD’S WILLINGNESS

and

MAN’S UNWILLINGNESS

A Problem For Extreme Calvinists

Introduction

In no uncertain terms the Bible declares that God is a sovereign God who “worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” and who has “done whatsoever He hath pleased” (Eph. 1:11; Psalm 115:3). We must, however, be careful to distinguish between two kinds of decrees, both of which have to do with the sovereign outworking of God’s eternal plan. There are efficacious decrees whereby God purposes to accomplish something directly by Himself (examples of this would be the creation of the world, the sending of the Genesis Flood, judgment upon Babel, the virgin birth, etc.). Man has nothing to do with these things. God’s direct will and activity brings them about. There are also permissive decrees whereby God decides to accomplish His overall purpose of bringing glory to Himself by allowing His creatures to perform in certain ways, even ways that are contrary to His will. He allows His creatures to act in a way that is contrary to the desire and wish of the Creator. This we call sin. God, for example, did not want or wish Adam to sin as indicated in His command to the contrary (Gen. 2:16-17), but God allowed Adam to sin and this terrible sin and momentous fall was part of God’s overall plan whereby He would ultimately bring glory to Himself.

Extreme Calvinists seem to have difficulty in understanding how a sovereign God can “desire” something that will never come to pass. They believe that whatever God wills and desires must come to pass. If God desires to save certain men then these men must be saved. If God so loved the world, then the world must be saved. If Christ died for all men, then all men must be saved. This is how they would reason. Of course, they believe that Christ did not die for all men but that He died only for the elect. They believe that all who Christ died for will be saved (but they say He only died for some and not for all). As one writer has said in light of 1 Timothy 2:4—“What God desires that He will do” (thus he believes that the phrase “all men” in this verse refers only to the elect). They feel that if God wants men to repent, then they will repent (God will work in their hearts and bring about repentance). They reason that if God wants men to believe, then they will believe.

They can’t seem to understand how God could love someone and not save that person. For example, the Scripture says that Christ loved the rich young ruler (Mark 10:21), a man who “went away” and as far as we can tell never followed Christ. A.W. Pink cannot believe that Christ would love a man who would never be saved. He said, “We fully believe that he (the rich young ruler) was one of God’s elect, and was saved sometime after his interview with the Lord.” This is Pink’s theory, but the Scripture provides no support for this view. It is a view based on Pink’s theology, not based on Pink’s Bible.

If God is willing, then the extreme Calvinist believes that man must be willing also, because God will make him so. If man is unwilling, then it must be because God was unwilling to make the person willing. The Scripture, however, teaches that even though God is willing and desirous that men should turn from sin and go in His direction, He often allows men to have their own way and go their own way according to the stubbornness of their own sin-hardened hearts. God was willing, but they were not. God would, but they would not.

Thus our purpose in this study is to examine certain key words (especially in the Old Testament) which demonstrate that God’s compassion and desire and invitation does indeed reach out to all men, even to those who refuse to repent and believe and come to Him. We shall see the wonderful willingness of God in sharp contrast to the stubborn unwillingness of man. We will gain a better appreciation for our Lord’s words in Matthew 23:37 which cannot be fully understood apart from certain Old Testament passages which we shall study. May the Lord open our eyes to these truths.

The Hebrew Verb ‛abah [Strong’s #14]

This verb means “to be willing, to consent, to desire, to wish.” It is an interesting verb because it is always used with a negative particle except for two places (Isa. 1:19 and Job 39:9). With the negative it means “to be unwilling, to refuse.” For example, in Exodus 10:27 it is used of Pharaoh’s stubborn refusal to let the children of Israel go (“he would not,” he refused!). This word is also illustrated in 2 Samuel 23:16 where David refused to drink the water (“he would not”) even though he was terribly thirsty. This word is also used in Isaiah 42:24 (Israel’s refusal to walk in God’s ways) and in Ezekiel 3:7 (used twice) and 20:8 (Israel’s refusal to listen to God). The following passages which contain this verb especially relate to our study:

1) Psalm 81:11—“But my people would not hearken to my voice, and Israel would have none of me.” God wanted them to open their mouth wide (v.10). God wanted to bless them and fill them (v.10). God earnestly desired that they should hearken unto Him and walk in His ways. How could God’s willingness and desire be stated any clearer than in verse 13? “Oh, that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!” (Psalm 81:13). God was willing! God would have done so much for them (verses 14-16), but they would not. They refused! God had a heart for them; they had no heart for God.

2) Proverbs 1:25,30—“But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof . . . They would have none of my counsel; they despised all my reproof.” Is God willing that men should love simplicity and hate knowledge (v.22)? Wisdom cries out (v.20) and invites men (v.23) and promises great things to those who come to her (v.23). God was willing; man was unwilling (v.25,30).

3) Isaiah 28:12—“This is the rest by which ye may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing; yet they would not hear.” God graciously offered rest (compare Matthew 11:28) and refreshment, but they refused (compare Jer. 6:16). God was willing to give them rest but they were unwilling to receive it.

4) Isaiah 30:15—“For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel: In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.” God graciously offered rest and deliverance, but the rebellious ones (v.1,9) refused. They said NO (v.16) to God’s kind offer.

5) Isaiah 1:19—“If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land. This is one of those rare places where the verb is used without the negative. God’s desire was that they would be clean (v.16). God wanted them to learn to do well (v.17). God was willing to reason with them and to offer them the forgiveness of sins (v.18). God was willing. Would they be willing (v.19) or would they refuse (v.20)?

The Hebrew Verb ma’en [Strong’s #3985]

This verb means the opposite of the last verb. It means “to refuse, to be unwilling, to refuse with a resolved mind.” Thus it means the very same thing as ‛abah [Strong’s #14] with the negative. Pharaoh is a good illustration of this verb also. In Exodus 7:14 he refused to let the people go. Let us now examine some of the passages where this verb is used:

1) Jeremiah 5:3—“O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? Thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction. They have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.” God wanted Israel to return to Himself (Jer. 4:1) but they refused! God was willing, they were not.

2) Jeremiah 11:10—“They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, who refused to hear my words.” God earnestly protested to their fathers (v.7) because He wanted them to obey His voice (v.7), but they refused (v.8). God wanted them to obey, but He allowed them to walk in the imagination of their evil heart (v.8).

3) 1 Samuel 8:19—“Nevertheless, the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay, but we will have a king over us.” God was willing to be their King and the Lord was grieved that they had rejected Him (v.7).

4) Nehemiah 9:16-17—“But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments, and refused to obey.” God was ready, willing and eager to pardon and to be merciful and to hold back His anger (verse 17), but the people who lived in the days of Moses refused to obey.

5) Proverbs 1:24—“Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded.” God (personified by wisdom-v.20) called but man refused! God was willing to pour out His spirit unto them and make known His words to them, but they were unwilling (verses 23-24). God stretched out His hand (v.24) but they could care less.

6) Isaiah 1:20—“But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword.” God was willing and able to PARDON and WASH His people from their sins (verses 16,18). He was willing to pour out His blessing and give them the good of the land (v.19). God was willing, but were they?

7) Zechariah 7:11—“But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.” God’s will and desire was clearly revealed in His commands. He wanted them to turn from their evil ways (verses 9-10), but they refused to hearken. Their hearts were as hard as stone (v.12).

8) Jeremiah 13:10—“This evil people, who refuse to hear my words, who walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be like this belt, which is good for nothing.” God wanted the whole house of Israel and Judah to be unto Him for a people and.for a name and for a praise and for a glory (v.11). This was His desire, but THEY WOULD NOT HEAR (v.11). THEY REFUSED TO HEAR (v.10).

The Hebrew Verb bachar [Strong’s #977]

This is the common Hebrew verb which means “to choose, to select, to elect.” This word has been made famous by Joshua in Joshua 24:15—“Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” Let us now consider some of the other passages that use this word:

1) Deuteronomy 30:19—“I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore, choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” A choice must be made between life and death, good and evil (v.15). God wanted them to live and be blessed by loving Him and keeping His commandments (v.16). God, through Moses, warns them about making the wrong choice (verses 17-18). Finally Moses said, CHOOSE LIFE (v.19). Doubtless Moses was reflecting the desire of the living God that He might be their choice. God was willing for them to have life, but they must choose (compare John 5:40—God was willing for them to have life, but they must come).

2) Proverbs 1:29—“Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord.” God was willing (verses 20-23) but man was not (verses 24-25; 29-30).

3) Isaiah 65:12—“When I called, ye did not answer; when I spoke, ye did not hear, but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that in which I delighted not.” God was not delighted by their choice. It’s obvious that their choice did not please the Lord. It was not God’s wish or desire that they should choose in such a way. Notice God’s gracious appeal to these people. He “called” (v.12). He spread out His hands (v.2). He was willing, but they were not.

4) Isaiah 66:3-4—“Yea, they have chosen their own ways and their soul delighteth in their abominations . . . when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear; but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.” God allowed these people to go their own sinful ways. The people made a choice and the people were delighted in the choice that they made! God, however, was not delighted in their choice. He was grieved. God wanted the people to choose His ways not their own ways. Their choice was contrary to God’s desire.

Hebrew Verbs Meaning “To Stretch Out the Hands”

God’s willingness is seen by the way He earnestly and urgently calls to His people and pleads with them and entreats them. How can the Bible writers describe this divine entreaty in terms that we can understand? One of the ways is by picturing God as stretching forth His hands as He invites and urges His people to come unto Himself. In Proverbs 1:24 the verb natah [Strong’s #5186] means “to stretch or extend the hand.” In Isaiah 65:2 the verb paras [Strong’s #6566] is used with a similar meaning (“to spread out or extend the hands”). Consider the following passages:

1) Proverbs 1:24—“’Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded.” Here we have wisdom making her wonderful appeal and invitation which man foolishly rejects.

2) Isaiah 65:2—“I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, that walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts.” Notice that God was not pleased in the way that they were walking. God stretched out His hands and wanted to draw them unto Himself, but they wanted to go their own way. And God allowed it to be so! God let them have what they wanted even though it was not what He wanted. This verse is quoted by the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:21 (see below).

3) Romans 10:21—“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” The word “gainsaying” means “rebellious, contrary, refusing to have anything to do with God.” What words could better express God’s tender invitation to sinful men as He extends wide His arms. As Hodge remarks, “God has extended wide His arms, and urged men frequently and long to return to His love.” What yearning, what love, what pleading, what patience! As Barnes has said, “This denotes an attitude of entreaty; a willingness and earnest desire to receive them to favour, to invite and entreat.” “The arms outstretched all the day long are the symbol of that incessant pleading love which Israel through all its history has consistently despised” (Expositor’s Greek New Testament). God was so willing; man was so rebellious!

The New Testament Verb thelo [Strong’s #2309]

This common verb means “to wish, desire, be willing, take delight, have pleasure.” In the Septuagint it is used frequently and often it corresponds to some of the Hebrew verbs we have already studied. For example, it occurs in Isaiah 1:19-20; Isaiah 28:12; Jeremiah 5:3; 8:5; Ezekiel 3:7; 18:23,32. Let us now consider a few New Testament examples of the usage of this word:

1) Matthew 23:37—“Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chicken under her wings, and ye would not.” The verb is used twice in this verse. Jesus was saying: “I would . . . ye would not.” “I was willing . . . you were not willing!” God was willing to gather these murderers unto Himself but they were not willing! God wanted to gather them, but they did not want to be gathered! God’s willingness and man’s stubborn refusal are so clearly expressed in this passage! We will say more about this verse later.

2) Luke 13:34—parallel to Matthew 23:37.

3) John 5:40—“And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.” A literal translation: “And ye do not desire to come to Me, that ye might have life.” Again we see man’s wicked refusal to come to the living God. Why do people not have eternal life? They refuse to come to the One who is LIFE and who desires to give LIFE (John 10:27-28). Is God willing that men should come to Him and have life? Consider the next verse:

4) 1 Timothy 2:4—“Who will have (desires) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” This is God’s desire for all men. God is willing (1 Tim. 2:4) but man is unwilling (John 5:40). God does not desire that any should perish.

Note: This verb, thelo [Strong’s #2309], in its noun form, is often used in relationship to God’s will for the believer (1 Thess. 4:3; 5:18; Eph. 5:17-18; etc.). God’s will and desire for every believer is that we should be holy, constantly filled with the Spirit and constantly filled with thanksgiving, etc. Yet often we fall short of these things and our God is grieved. God is willing to fill us with Himself, but often we hinder and quench His working in our lives even though He is willing to do so much in and through us (compare Psalm 81:10). So even when it comes to practical sanctification, God is willing but His believers are unwilling at times.

The Hebrew Verb chaphets [Strong’s #2654]

This verb means “to delight in, take pleasure in.” Here are some of the places it is used:

1) Isaiah 65:12—“When I called, ye did not answer, when I spoke, ye did not hear, but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that in which I delighted not.” God was not pleased by their choice. He wanted them to choose differently.

2) Isaiah 66:4—“When I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear; but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.” God is not delighted when men choose their own ways (v.3), but He allows them to make such a tragic choice. God desires something else, but often He gives men up to their own desires.

3) Ezekiel 18:23—“Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD, and not that he should return from his ways, and live?” God is not delighted when the wicked continue in their wicked ways. God is delighted and pleased when the wicked turn from their wicked ways. God’s will and wish for every wicked person is this: Turn from your evil ways and live!

4) Ezekiel 18:32—“For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore, turn yourselves, and live.” In this verse God answers the question raised in verse 23. God is not willing that sinners should continue in their sin. God is willing that they should turn in the direction of the living God. Question for the extreme Calvinists: If God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, then why do the wicked die?

5) Ezekiel 33:11—“Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Nothing could be more clear. God desires that the wicked should turn from their evil ways. God pleads with these sinners and urges them to repent and be converted. “Why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Certainly not because God wanted you to die!

The Hebrew Verb shakam [Strong’s #7925]

This interesting verb means “to rise up early in the morning.” Figuratively it came to mean “speaking early and often, to speak earnestly, eagerly and urgently, to urge earnestly.” Let the following verses speak for themselves:

1) 2 Chronicles 36:15-16—“And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up early and sending, because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words.”

2) Jeremiah 7:13—“I spoke unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not.”

3) Jeremiah 7:25-26—Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants, the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them; yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck.”

4) Jeremiah 11:7-8—“For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice. Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart.”

5) Jeremiah 25:3-4—“I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking, but ye have not hearkened. And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants, the prophets, rising early and sending them, but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear” (see also verse 5).

6) Jeremiah 26:4-5—“If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, to hearken to the words of my servants, the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened.”

7) Jeremiah 29:19—“Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants, the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.”

8) Jeremiah 32:33—“And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face; though I have taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.”

9) Jeremiah 35:14-15—“I have spoken to you, rising early and speaking, but ye harkened not unto me. I have sent also unto you all my servants, the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings . . . but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.”

10) Jeremiah 44:4-5—“I sent unto you all my servants, the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness.”

[See also Neh. 9:29-30 and Zech. 1:4 where this word is not used but the same idea is there.]

Conclusion

Jeremiah is known as the weeping prophet, but his tears were but a mere reflection of a grieved and weeping God. When this God became a man these tears could again be seen as He wept over Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37; compare Luke 19:41) and said, “HOW OFTEN would I have gathered you.” These words can only be understood in light of the verses cited above: “How often have I sent my prophets unto you, rising up early! How often have I stretched forth my hands unto you! How often have I pleaded and entreated and invited! How often have I called unto you and spoken unto you! How often have I offered you REST and REFRESHMENT! How often would I have filled your mouth if you had but opened it! How often would I have reasoned together with you about your sins! Oh Israel, WHY WILL YOU DIE? Why do you choose the way that I do not delight in? Why do you go your own way? HOW OFTEN WAS I WILLING TO GATHER YOU UNTO MYSELF BUT YE WERE NOT WILLING!!!

I trust that this study has taught you something about the terrible depravity of man and the compassionate and tender heart of the Saviour who desires all men to be saved and who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. God is willing, but tragically man is often unwilling.

George Zeller

"I WOULD--BUT YE WOULD NOT."

(Matthew 23:37; Luke 19:41).

Alas! for thee, Jerusalem,

How cold thy heart to me!

How often in these arms of love,

Would I have gathered thee!

My sheltering wing had been your shield,

My love your happy lot:

I would it had been thus with thee--

I would, but ye would not."

He wept alone, and men passed on,

The men whose sins He bore;

They saw the Man of sorrows weep,

They had seen Him weep before;

They ask'd not whom those tears were for,

They ask'd not whence they flowed;

Those tears were for rebellious man;

Their source, the heart of God.

They fell upon this desert earth,

Like drops from heaven on high,

Struck from an ocean-tide of love

That fills eternity.

With love and tenderness divine,

Those crystal cells o'erflow,

'Tis God that weeps, through human eyes,

For human guilt and woe.

That hour has fled, those tears are told;

The agony is past;

The Lord has wept, the Lord has bled,

But has not loved His last,

His eye of love is downward bent,

Still ranging to and fro,

Where'er in this wide wilderness

There roams the child of woe;

Nor His alone--the Three in One,

Who looked through Jesu's eye,

Could still the harps of angel bands,

To hear the suppliant sigh;

And when the rebel chooses wrath,

God mourns his hapless lot,

Deep breathing from His heart of love,

"I would, but ye would not."

--A.Miller, Brethren writer (The Serious Christian, Series II, Vol. V, pp. 85-87).


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: atonement; calvinism; freewill; salvation; thebloodbank
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 281-298 next last
To: Jerry_M; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; P-Marlowe; ShadowAce; SpookBrat
Jerry,
That post pretty well proves that calvinism is not a supportable biblical theology.

The loss of the "L" and the "I" render unconditional election an untenable position.

Thanks for having been part of the discussion.

xzins
141 posted on 07/24/2002 9:35:23 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 140 | View Replies]

To: xzins; P-Marlowe; RnMomof7; the_doc; Jerry_M
Taste death for every man.

Hey, xzins, what is the gree word here which translates to man?

BTW, you ignored my Hebrews verse which I posted earlier: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So much for your ideas that Hebrews teaches Universalism!
142 posted on 07/24/2002 10:12:31 AM PDT by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody
Hey, xzins, what is the gree word here which translates to man? BTW, you ignored my Hebrews verse which I posted earlier: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. So much for your ideas that Hebrews teaches Universalism!

Let me say it again so that even you have a point of time with a written reference.

I do not believe in universalism. I believe that only believers from earth will be in heaven. That is impossible to reconcile with universalism.

But your intent was to spread misrepresentation and false innuendo. You have done far more attacking me than you have done scriptural exposition in the last few days.

Don't have my greek text here, woody. Man is normally anthropos or some case/number derivitive thereof. What is it in this instance?

The scripture says: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).

For all: a complete exposition of unlimited atonement is found at unlimited atonement

143 posted on 07/24/2002 10:23:51 AM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 142 | View Replies]

To: xzins; RnMomof7
YOU were in control .YOU exercised authority over the grace of God..YOU had the power to To hold in restraint; check: the grace of God .YOU had the Authority or ability to manage or direct the work of the Holy Spirit.. Yes xzins you are contoling even over God..you are scared to death to fall backwards into His arms So who was God on the day you were saved ? It sure sounds like your were you continue to attack me and refuse to offer even a smidgen of scripture in support of limited atonement and irresistible grace. I'm quite sure that everyone knows the style of debate you have adopted.

Faith is obedience to the command of God to believe (Jn.6:29,1Jn.3:23) and since we are only obeying what has been commanded we take no pride in doing so (Lk.17) knowing that it is God who did all the work and we are only receiving a free gift(Eph.2:8-9)

There is far more a basis of pride in Calvinism where you get chosen but someone else isn't it.

Ofcourse, you hide your pride like that of the pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 with religious words like sovereign grace, but in reality it simply means, I do not know why God picked me, and not others, but there must be some reason!

144 posted on 07/24/2002 12:19:09 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: xzins; RnMomof7; Jerry_M; Jean Chauvin; rdb3; A.J.Armitage
Don't have my greek text here, woody. Man is normally anthropos or some case/number derivitive thereof. What is it in this instance?

It doesn't exist.

Here is the greek for Hebrews 2:9-- de blepo lesous ho elattoo brachus tis elatto para aggelos dia pathema thanatos stephanoo doxa hai time hopos geuomia charis theos geuomai thanatos huper pas

In other words, you are simply relying on an intrepretation. You must find the context of the passage to find out who the "all" are.

Here, look at Hebrews again: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Simple question for ya: Since Hebrews clearly does not teach that Christ bore the sins of all in his body, how can you say that Christ actually made the Atonement for all men without exception, that He actually made the Propitiation for all men without exception.

BTW, while you are pondering that verse and how it shreds your beliefs that Jesus actually bore the sins of all men without exception in his body, let us attend to the very words of Jesus Himself: "This is My blood of the new covenant wich is shed for many." (Mark 14:24) You'd thing that Jesus could have at least gotten it right!

And since you claim to not put any limits on the Atonement anywhere, why should I not refer to you as a Universalist?
145 posted on 07/24/2002 1:04:48 PM PDT by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration; RnMomof7; xzins; Jean Chauvin; rdb3; zadok; Wrigley; Jerry_M; drstevej
Faith is obedience

Still making things up as you go along I see. No, faith is not obedience; they are 2 entirely separate things. Only in some kind of a wierd works based salvation can you define faith as being obedient.

If that were the case, I could hate God and as long as I was obedient to him then I would still have saving faith. What a joke definition!
146 posted on 07/24/2002 1:12:25 PM PDT by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody
I will allow a CALVINIST to provide the answer for us:

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

The word "everyone" is better translated "each."

Henry Alford comments: "If it be asked, why pantos (each) rather than panton (all), we may safely say that the singular brings out, far more strongly than the plural word, the applicability of Christ's death to each individual man."

The scriptures testifies to the sacrifice sufficient and intended for all and effective for believers.

This scripture is on the sufficient for all side of the house. The "shed for many" passage deals with the "effective for believers" side of the equation.

There is no escaping it. The scriptures testify against a limited atonement.

147 posted on 07/24/2002 1:31:26 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody
No, faith is not obedience...

Amen.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

--Hebrews 11:1

148 posted on 07/24/2002 1:35:21 PM PDT by rdb3
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: xzins; Jerry_M; rdb3
The scriptures testifies to the sacrifice sufficient and intended for all and effective for believers.

In other words, Limited in its effectiveness for believers.

This scripture is on the sufficient for all side of the house. The "shed for many" passage deals with the "effective for believers" side of the equation.

In other words Limited in that it is only "shed for many". In what way can you even say that the blood is intended for all when it is only shed for many?

Jerry, upon further reflection, I am beginning to not like the terminology "sufficient for all, but effecient for the elect." It sure is getting abused.
149 posted on 07/24/2002 2:19:55 PM PDT by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: xzins; CCWoody
Don't have my greek text here, woody. Man is normally anthropos or some case/number derivitive thereof. What is it in this instance?

In this instance, the words of Hebrews 2:9 are, "ton de brachu ti par' aggelous ElattOmenon blepomen IEsoun dia to pathEma tou thanatou doxE kai timE estephanOmenon, hopOs xariti theou hyper pantos geusEtai thanatou." Pantos, from the Greek pan, all/every. Since it is not followed by a modifying word such as anEr or andros (man) or the like, it translates as "one." "...tasted death for everyone." I fail to see, however, how this helps any tenous case you may have for Limited Atonement, Woody.

150 posted on 07/24/2002 5:14:08 PM PDT by The Grammarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Man is not in the original text as Gill pointed out ..it is "pas"..so who is all? All that the Father gives Him that is who!

So now you answer me..Would a Just God demand a double payment of a debt

If His Sons blood paid the price for everyman

Then no man on the earth should have a sin debt to pay anymore..

So how can a just God of Love and Mercy demand a man pay a debt that has already been paid for him?

IS THAT FAIR?

151 posted on 07/24/2002 6:12:59 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: xzins
So you now accept fully the open theists views and are a true Univeralist ..no man will go to hell correct?

That is how the scripture reads by your rekoning

You like the universal all very much pastor ..close your church you are not necessary

152 posted on 07/24/2002 6:15:32 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Every time you say the scriptures testify to a unlimited atonement I will post this..
God carefully gave the people of Isreal a sign of the method and process of salvation in the High Priest and the Lamb

God made a covenant with the twelve tribes of Israel (Gods elect nation) at the foot of Mount Sinai. Animal sacrifices were offered,as God had prescribed Then "Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you.

Hebrews 5 through 10 is a New Testament commentary on Leviticus, emphasizing the priesthood of Christ and his atoning death. there is nothing there to indicate the sacrifice of the High Priest was an unlimited atonment .

The sacrificial system of Leviticus foreshadows tha sacrifice of Calvery

"On the Day of Atonement the priest made a special sacrifice. At this annual event, the High Priest would make a sacrifice for the nation of Israel as a whole. He would take two goat kids, one of which would become a burnt offering.

The second kid was a sin offering,( "scapegoat." )The High Priest would place his hands on the goat's head and confess over it the sins of the nation of Israel . Israel's sin was symbolically transferred to the goat. Then the goat was released in the wilderness, to die in the wild .

Both these goats were types of Christ. The first died for Israel's sins. The second, the scapegoat, symbolized the carrying away of their sin, where it would be lost and forgotten. Like the first, Christ died for our sins and like the second He carried away our sins "as far as the east is from the west" , But when that High Priest placed his hands on those goats he knew who's sin he was transfering. It was specific to the nation of Israel


All of this was peculiar to the agreement between God and Israel. It was not a general atonment by the Lamb. It was a specific atonment for a limited preselected people.

This type of Christ demonstrated a limited atonement
153 posted on 07/24/2002 6:18:36 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: xzins
The scriptures testifies to the sacrifice sufficient and intended for all and effective for believers.

No it says" all men" remember ? xzins your "all" has no limitations on it.......

Close the church doors and get a real job..your doctrine has made the gospel unnecessary ( The Unitarians and Universalists   are looking for a few good men)

What they believe .

Universalism is the theological doctrine that all souls will ultimately be saved and that there are no torments of hell. Universalism has been asserted at various times in different contexts throughout the history of the "Christian church" -- e.g., Origen in the 3rd century. The Universalists also denied the miraculous element in Scripture, and rejected such important Bible doctrines as the total depravity of man and the Trinity.

Other than the trinity you are all set...

154 posted on 07/24/2002 6:29:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody; Jerry_M
Jerry, upon further reflection, I am beginning to not like the terminology "sufficient for all, but effecient for the elect." It sure is getting abused.

Woody it is very clear language to those that have ears to hear....

155 posted on 07/24/2002 6:31:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: The Grammarian
Isaiah 53:10-12"But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."
156 posted on 07/24/2002 6:35:48 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 150 | View Replies]

To: The Grammarian; xzins; Jean Chauvin; the_doc; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
I fail to see, however, how this helps any tenous case you may have for Limited Atonement, Woody.

I noticed that you ignored the rest of the scripture cites in my post. Typical Arminianism!

The problem is really yours. How can you maintain that the Atonement is unlimited unless you are a Universalist? Besides, deal with what verse in Hebrews is clear and without any intrepretational difficulties: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
157 posted on 07/24/2002 6:42:53 PM PDT by CCWoody
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 150 | View Replies]

To: CCWoody
See the consistancy with the Isaiah 53 quote
158 posted on 07/24/2002 6:45:35 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7; CCWoody
Hi, y'all. Anything happening on the atonement front? We talking scripture yet, or are you two still in personal attack mode?

Limited atonement: wrong theology. Lurkers/readers go to click here for a complete scriptural decimation of limited atonement.

Irresistible grace: wrong theology. Lurkers/readers go to click here for a complete scriptural decimation of irresistible grace.

159 posted on 07/24/2002 8:52:00 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Not much I am still waiting for you to explain to me how a just God makes a man burn in hell for a debt that has been paind in full by the shed blood of His Son . Is that fair?


The doctrine of Limited Atonement (or Particular Redemption) is probably the most controversial of the doctrines of grace and most difficult to accept by many believers. Limited Atonement states that Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only, and actually secured salvation for them. His death was the substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation; including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.

The first thing to consider is the purpose of Christ's death. Hebrews 10:9 says that Jesus came to do the will of the Father. So it follows that the purpose of His death was to accomplish the Father's will. But what was the Father's will in the death of Christ? It was shown from Scripture in the previous article on the doctrine of unconditional election that it was the purpose of the Father to choose some for salvation, not make salvation a potential for all based on the exercise of free will, which is totally corrupted and depraved by sin. If, then, Christ came to fulfill the purpose of the Father; and it was not the purpose of the Father to elect some to salvation rather than all; then it logically follows that it was not the purpose of Christ to die for all men.

In the covenant of grace, the Father chose a people, Christ promised to die for them, and the Spirit pledged Himself to apply salvation to their hearts. In Isaiah 53:10-12 it says: "But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors."

Christ foresaw the suffering and agony that He would have to endure, and yet, He was content with it, for He realized that by His death, everyone for whom He died would be redeemed from sin. Now if Christ died for all men, and some for whom He died ended up going to hell anyway, then Christ could not have foreseen the suffering and agony of His soul and been satisfied. He would have been disappointed because His efforts would not have been sufficient to save everyone for whom He died. Therefore, the atonement Christ made for the sins of His people was limited in purpose; not in its value, but in its purpose, for it was designed for the elect of God.

The second point to consider is that the purpose of the death of Christ was to save His people from their sins. That is clearly stated for us in Matthew 1:21: "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." This passage did not say that He would save the whole world, nor did it say that He should try to save His people; but that He would save His people from their sins. If that was the prophecy given concerning the birth of Jesus Christ and the purpose for which He came, we must surely know that which was determined by the Father was fulfilled by His faithful Son. Luke 19:10 supports this point: "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." If that then was His purpose; He accomplished that very thing.

Thirdly, the purpose of Jesus' death was to bring the elect to glory. Romans 8:28-30 says: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." In John 17 is the prayer of intercession made by the Lord Jesus. In verse 2 He prayed, "Even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life." Note that eternal life was not for all men, but those that were given to Him by the Father. In verse 9 He continues: "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;". It would not be reasonable that Christ would limit His prayers to those given to Him by the Father, and at the same time die for all men, knowing very well that many would not be saved. He prayed for those for whom He died, and He died for those given Him by the Father. His purpose then was not to save the entire human race, for if that had been His purpose He would have accomplished it. Christ is the Almighty and accomplishes everything He intends to do. It was His purpose to save only the elect of God, and His purpose was fulfilled.

Christ died for His sheep, and because of this none can be lost. In John 10:10-11 He said, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." And in verse 28 He continues: "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." (Notice that He does not offer them eternal life.) Jesus died for the sheep, and He gives eternal life to everyone for whom He died. Christ did not come to attempt to save men; He came to redeem His people. He purged their sins and then sat down on the right hand of His Father. (Hebrews 10:12)

As was stated at the beginning, there are many who find this doctrine hard to accept and so object to it. Nonetheless it is truth that is taught in the Word of God. There are many objections that are raised, and this article will only deal with some of the main ones. One of the first things objectors usually refer to is the use of the word "world" in the Scriptures, and the first passage that is always read is John 3:16: " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16 simply states that the design of God's love, that all who believe in Christ should be saved by Him. These believers in their unregenerate state are scattered abroad among the Gentiles as well as among the Jews, and so are fitly described by the word "world." Of course, there are those who reject this explanation. They may look to Acts 11:18 for support: "When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, 'Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." But does this mean that every Gentile has been granted repentance, and that every Gentile will be saved? Of course not. What this passage shows is that repentance has been granted to the Gentiles; it simply means that all those of God's elect among the Gentiles shall be given repentance unto salvation. The Jews are not the only ones to be granted this gift. Jews as well as Gentiles have been given repentance, and so it is the same in John 3:16. It does not have reference to every person in the world, but it has reference to men of all nations.

A passage that illustrates this point well is found in Revelation 5:9: "And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.'" This helps us to understand, in this context, what is meant by the use of the word "world". It means people of every tribe, tongue, and people; that Christ's death was not restricted to the Jews, but that it was for members of the entire human race scattered throughout the earth.

There are several other examples. In John 7:7 the word "world" is used to distinguish unbelievers from believers. In John 12:9 the word "world" is used of a special people. Romans 11:15 uses it to distinguish Gentiles from Jews, and thus so in passages such as John 3:16 and 1:27, I John 2:1 and 2 -- it is used of all the elect of God. Hebrews 2:9 says, "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." At this point someone may say, "This is Scriptural proof that Christ died for all men." But the context will explain what it means. "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, 'I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.'" (Hebrews 2:10-12) When read in context it can be seen that the passage has reference to sons; it has reference to the church; it has reference to the brethren; it has reference to those who are the children of God. So this passage could be understood to say that "Christ has experienced death for every son," for every one that was given to Him by the Father.

What about 2 Peter 2:1? "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves." It must be made clear that these false teachers are unsaved. They are compared to dogs and pigs, not to sheep (2 Peter 2:22). Such people are described in Jude 19 "devoid of the Spirit." If a person does not have the Spirit of God within, he is not a child of God (Romans 8:9). He may appear to be saved and even become a member or an officer in the church, but eventually, in one way or another, he will deny the Lord. 

Notwithstanding, this passage is not discussing the atonement of Christ. Peter's first epistle was written to Jews, so most likely was his second one. (1 Peter 1:1; Galatians 2:7) In what sense were these false teachers "bought" by the Lord? To a Jew who was not a Christian "the Lord" would most naturally refer to God the Father, not Jesus. And the Jews were "bought" by God in the Exodus.

One more passage of Scripture to consider is Romans 8:34. It is a clear example of Limited Atonement, or Particular Redemption. It says, "Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." How could any for whom Christ died be condemned? The law has been fulfilled, justice has been satisfied, sin has been paid for; and so, the Apostle Paul argues that condemnation is impossible. And since condemnation is excluded by His death, then none for whom He died can be condemned. All for whom Christ died, died in Him; thus the law could not again demand their death.

The renowned 19th century British preacher and evangelist Charles H. Spurgeon had these words to say about limited atonement (from his sermon, "The Mission of the Son of Man"):


"Now, some people love the doctrine of 'universal atonement' because they say it is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that 'Christ should have died for all men'; it commends itself, they say, to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty.

"I admit there is; but beauty may be often associated with falsehood.

"There is much which I might well admire in the theory of 'universal redemption' but let me just tell you what this supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were damned before He died; because if this doctrine (that He died for all men) is true, He died for some that were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were myriads there that had been cast away.

"Once again, if it were Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed! For we have His own evidence that there is a lake that burns with fire and brimstone, and into that pit must be cast some of the very people, who according to that theory, were bought with His blood!

"To think that my Savior died for men in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to imagine. That He was the substitute for the sons of men, and that God having first punished the substitute, punished these same men again, seems to me to conflict with any idea of justice.

"That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards, some of those very men should be punished for the same sins which Christ had already atoned for, seems to me, to be the most marvelous monstrosity that ever could have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, aye, to the god of the Thugs, or the most diabolical heathen demons!

"God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise."


In conclusion, the death of Christ is the foundation of the Christian's hope. But those believing in a general redemption cannot possibly fully enjoy that blessed hope in Christ. They claim to believe in a redeemer who is not completely successful in redeeming the lost; an atonement that falls short of achieving its purpose; thus believing that the death of Christ must be joined with freewill in order to save. Fortunately, Jesus is a Redeemer who does deliver His people from sin; not just tries to deliver His people with the possibility of losing some of them. His grace is thoroughly efficacious in saving the elect, for whom He died. And one elected by the grace of God is bound to come to Him, for it would be then natural for him to do so.
160 posted on 07/24/2002 8:57:49 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180 ... 281-298 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson