Historic Premillennialism

Note the differences with the 'typical ' premil..it is distinctive...

For the record, I believe Jesus will come again and sit on a literal throne on earth and reign as a literal king for 1000 years.

Well, that by definition makes you a 'Millennialist' as opposed to an Amillennialist who believes that we move right into eternity after the Second Advent.

The question is this. Will there be birth and death during the millenium reign of Christ? Will there be those who are born during the millenium who are saved? If there are, and they die before the millenium is over, when will they be ressurrected?

All interesting questions.

Yes, the world will be repopulated with flesh and blood individuals.

You clearly have infants since reference is made to them able to play with dangerous animals (Isa.11:6-8), it says that life will be greatly extended so that a 'child' will die at a 100 (Isa.65:20)(if someone day at the age of 100 he will be considered as dying young).

There are still sins being committed, which are 'covered' in Ezekiel's Temple (Ezek,45)

Those who are born in the Millennial kingdom, will be under a faith plus works system, not just faith and faith alone as we are in the Church age.

Thus, they will not only have to believe but obey or lose their salvation.

God allows a final rebellion to test who are the 'tares' and who are the 'wheat' and then after destroying them, sets up the Great White Throne Judgement for the final judgement.

Those who do not reject God in the Millennial go into the New Heavens and Earth in regular bodies to repopulate the New Earth.

I believe this to be true from Rev. 21-22, where nations still exist and must partake of the 'tree of healing'.

Classical Premillennialists mix-up Rev.21-22 into the Millennial kingdom and eternal kingdom, moving the prophecies regarding 'nations' and the 'tree of healing' into the Millennial kingdom.

This is because Isaiah does that in his prophecies, but that was common in Isaiah since he did the same with the Messianic prophecies.

Your #22).................Amen and Amen!

.............'fitting'.......#22,......

:-)

BTTT

You are obviously still very young, and inexperienced. - Your college years have, as is all too common, been devastating to your understanding of God's word. - This is not unusual, as colleges tend to be run by liberal doubters and it would take the mind of the Lord himself to resist their propaganda.

Time will re-open your eyes if you give it a chance (and if there is that much time left before prophecy becomes demonstrative). - The historic proof through the writing of eye witnesses who studied under John make preterism untenable to the objective reader.

You are obviously are a very arrogant and myopic boomer fundamentalist with little understanding of history or Scripture. That is not unusual, boomers and fundamentalists love to delude themselves into believing they are the center of history, the axis upon which all else turns, the pinnacle of history, the terminal generation.

My college was hardly liberal so take your straw man and set it on fire because it is worthless. You are the liberal, if by liberal you intend one who perverts or denies God's Word - you are the one who is asserting, by your errant futurism, that Jesus was a liar.

I fancy time won't open your eyes to the error of your belief system. Futurists of your ilk have been teaching an imminent Second Coming for the last century and a half (since dispensational premillennialism was invented), making asses of themselves and the Gospel. But, so long as fools are willing to buy the books, do bad eisegesis of Scripture and use newspapers as commentaries, there will be chicken littles perverting Scripture, leading folks astray, bringing mockery upon the Gospel and consoling themselves that time is short while they wait for their one way ticket to paradise.

Barring your death - will 2007, 2012, 2017 do anything to your system, your expectation that you live in the 'last generation?' Naw.

So, take your condescending tripe, fold it neatly origami style and shove it. Truth in love friend, hugs and kisses.

So, take your condescending tripe, fold it neatly origami style and shove it. Truth in love friend, hugs and kisses.

I bet you can give a good hell, fire and brimstone sermon.

Really blew your clothes off, huh?

You're still shaking!

I read your #14 and then read this post. In #14 you say, "I try to grant others as much respect and consideration as I want for my own views."

In this post you say,"Futurists of your ilk have been teaching an imminent Second Coming for the last century and a half (since dispensational premillennialism was invented), making asses of themselves and the Gospel. But, so long as fools are willing to buy the books, do bad eisegesis of Scripture and use newspapers as commentaries, there will be chicken littles perverting Scripture, leading folks astray, bringing mockery upon the Gospel and consoling themselves that time is short while they wait for their one way ticket to paradise."

How are these two statements consistent? The later I find particularly uncharitable and offensive. I never heard this type of diatribe during my doctoral program at Westminster Seminary.

***So, take your condescending tripe, fold it neatly origami style and shove it. Truth in love friend, hugs and kisses. ***

This is respect and consideration?

-drstevej

I am absolutely willing to engage in give & take dialog with other Christians and people of faith on any number of issues. I believe I conducted myself in a spirit of charity and mutual forbearance on this thread. However, an a** saw fit to introduce ageism and a personal attack upon my integrity, or at least my ability to know, apprehend, comprehend and act upon the truth. I've got little time for passively accepting insults upon my honor and integrity. I have a bit more self-respect than to brook such nonsense, sorry if you find that inconsistent . . . back to that Romans 12 thing you know.

You know, PR, your previous posts indicated that your eschatological
positions were neutral and that on your website and in your classes
you intended to be fair to both sides ---- BUT now it becomes
quite evident that your neutrality is pretentious at best.

Again, I'll grant a mutual respect and tolerance toward those who grant it. I never advocated 'neutrality' simply charity - live and let live. That does not mean to imply that I have no convictions. I was having a delightful posting discussion with RnMomof7 and others on a controversial topic, especially on FR in which there was charity being shown to one another. I still honor the honest convictions of futurists, at least those who are willing to grant the same to me and others. To dascholes who must snipe and insult, I will properly rebuke. If they can dish out personal attack, they can take (I'm sure they are big boys and girls) a response.

Beyond that, I'll say no more, other than for those who wish to engage in respectful dialog, I have nothing but respect myself. For folks who know innately that their endtimes systems are so weak and dying that they must rely upon personal attack, go crank up some Van Impe tapes and console yourselves that the end is near and that all who disagree with you are part of a global antichristian conspiracy.

I'm historic premil, ardently reformed, strong opponent of dispensationalism, but man, you cannot talk like this to other people, no matter how wrong or abrasive they might be. Your whole point gets lost in the way you say it.

If you get into an argument on a street corner with a fool, a passer-by may not be able to tell the difference.

Have dignity. Jesus is Lord.

What I would like to see is more material from a historic premill standpoint, refuting the idea of a pretrib rapture (especially in light of LaHayesteria). They call us posttribbers,which is kind of a misrepresentation because we don't make such an issue of that, it's pretribbers who do (kind of the cornerstone of their whole theology). But I would like to see some emphasis form our perspective that there is some reference to a time of turmoil prior to Christ's return, and that, indeed, the Church will go through that.

Thanks for your opinion. I trust you are as ardent in pooh-poohing your brethren when they label preterists or other
non-premi's 'heretics.' I'm going to go tweeze the specks out of my eye now.

Futurists of your ilk have been teaching an imminent Second Coming for the last century and a half (since dispensational premillennialism was invented), making asses of themselves and the Gospel. But, so long as fools are willing to buy the books, do bad eisegesis of Scripture and use newspapers as commentaries, there will be chicken littles perverting Scripture, leading folks astray, bringing mockery upon the Gospel and consoling themselves that time is short while they wait for their one way ticket to paradise.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers walking after their own lusts, and saying Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation (2Pe.3:3-4)

Just as the Jews gave up looking for the Messiah in the 1st Advent, so the church has given up looking for Him in the 2nd (Titus 2:13)

"This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him concerning the events that will happen soon." Rev. 1:1 "For the time is near when these things will happen." Rev. 1:3b "Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him - even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the earth will weep because of him." Rev. 1:7 The Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. were fulfilled in AD 70 - within that first generation. There were scoffers! There were false messiahs and false prophets! 1 Peter was written prior to AD 70 - or do you accept the late dates posited upon flimsy evidence by the skeptics and higher critics of the late 19th Century? Peter was writing to admonish the readers, stay true, stay faithful - Christ will come soon. The Greek words behind our English translations such as 'mello' (I don't have Greek font) leave no room for an indefinite period of time. 'About to,' 'soon' do not mean a few millennia. Sorry.

The passage you would level at Bible-believing, Trinitarian, evangelical Christians is misplaced. I am not the one scoffing at Christ's Second Advent - it happend precisely as he said it would - judgment fell on the wicked city of Jerusalem that killed the prophets,even the Son of God. The temple, the priesthood, the animal sacrifices, the Old Covenant system were destroyed - a new, better, perfect covenant replaced it (avail yourself of the letter to the Hebrews).

I would submit if anyone is 'scoffing' it is the people who have been turned off of the good news of Jesus Christ, of salvation by grace and the blessings and benefits that believers have in Christ through the Church because they see hysterical Christians declaring for a century and a half that the 'end is near' and it never comes to pass. They see the premillennial date setters as false prophets - rightly or wrongly. For instance, Jack Van Impe (and his lovely wife Roxella) asserted that 2001 would see the ""rapture."" Glad for Jack (and his lovely wife Roxella) this isn't Old Covenant Israel, he might be dodging some stones.

Another interesting factoid - The ground zero of dispensational premillennialism in the 20th Century was, arguably, Dallas Theol. Sem. DTS has virtually abandoned every distinctive of classical dispensationalism because the system as it matured and as many of its thinkers matured and as the peculiar sytem faced decade after decade of critique acknowledged - its exegesis was faulty, its hermeneutic untenable and finally most of the Dallas types acknowledged it. They hold to radically modified 'progressive dispensationalism' which looks alot like 'historic premillennialism' which looks an awful lot like many amillennialists save for the interpretation of the single passage that speaks of a millennium in Rev. 20. This news though has not filtred out into the pews where folks still listen to Van Impe, Camping, La Haye, Ice, etc, et.al.

How can the premills here look forward to a rebuilt temple when Hebrews (apart from the rest of the New Testament and alot of prophetic hints and pointers in the OT) explicitly says that the temple and animal sacrifices are gone and worthless. There is absolutely NO ground in Scripture for offering the 'it will be a memorial' argument. There is no Scripture that suggests animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple are warranted as a memorial for the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

As scary as it may be to read articles dealing with prophetic texts that don't fit the mold of William Miller, Scofield, Darby, etc. - I suggest taking an honest look at some of the work available at http://www.bibleprophecy.com/ and http://www.preteristarchive.com/ and http://www.preterist.org/ You will see an optimistic alternative to the doomsday scenarios offered by folks such as Lindsey who make millions off their fictional books and, because they believe the end is near, live in poverty and give their money to missions, children's hospitals, etc..... No, sorry, rather Lindsey and the other false prophets take that money and invest it in the stock market, support ex-wiveS, etc. - for Jesus I'm sure.

Might I add, fortheDeclaration is a good illustration of why amills/postmills/prets/transmills must offer a zealous defense of the truth - because they pull the same crap as Democrats when they want to shut down discussion, debate and frighten potentially open minded folks on the sideline into running from the truth. But, unlike Democrats who might scream 'racist' or 'nazi' at Republicans and Libertarians, dispies pull out the old bromide of 'heretic' or 'false prophet' the moment they feel their fragile system is threatened.

It is the preterist, the postmillennialist, the optimistic amillennialist who are preparing for the future - working, saving, investing, thinking long-term and looking to exert dominion and influence in order to transform our culture. Those in the 'culture of death' are going to die out. Those who are having large families, training their children in Biblical thinking, inculcating a full-orbed Christian worldview in them are going to transform the future for God. I am quite sure there are some premills who try, though not as successfully because of their presuppositions and eschatology, to do the same. But such activity (such as Falwell and Robertson participating in the political process and cultural debate) is as inconsistent as a Christian Scientist taking antibiotics or having double by-pass. They are, gladly, hedging their bets that their exegesis might not be spot on.

Blessings on the New Israel of God.

Perhaps you have a different take on some of the premill. comments than mine or perhaps more nuanced or winsome.

This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him concerning the events that will happen soon." Rev. 1:1 "For the time is near when these things will happen." Rev. 1:3b "Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him - even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the earth will weep because of him." Rev. 1:7 The Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. were fulfilled in AD 70 - within that first generation. There were scoffers! There were false messiahs and false prophets! 1 Peter was written prior to AD 70 - or do you accept the late dates posited upon flimsy evidence by the skeptics and higher critics of the late 19th Century? Peter was writing to admonish the readers, stay true, stay faithful - Christ will come soon. The Greek words behind our English translations such as 'mello' (I don't have Greek font) leave no room for an indefinite period of time. 'About to,' 'soon' do not mean a few millennia. Sorry.

And Zech. 12:10 was done when?

The passage you would level at Bible-believing, Trinitarian, evangelical Christians is misplaced. I am not the one scoffing at Christ's Second Advent - it happend precisely as he said it would - judgment fell on the wicked city of Jerusalem that killed the prophets,even the Son of God. The temple, the priesthood, the animal sacrifices, the Old Covenant system were destroyed - a new, better, perfect covenant replaced it (avail yourself of the letter to the Hebrews).

It did? I did not know we were living in the Millennial with Christ ruling from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (Ezek 44-48)

I would submit if anyone is 'scoffing' it is the people who have been turned off of the good news of Jesus Christ, of salvation by grace and the blessings and benefits that believers have in Christ through the Church because they see hysterical Christians declaring for a century and a half that the 'end is near' and it never comes to pass.

Yet

They see the premillennial date setters as false prophets - rightly or wrongly. For instance, Jack Van Impe (and his lovely wife Roxella) asserted that 2001 would see the ""rapture."" Glad for Jack (and his lovely wife Roxella) this isn't Old Covenant Israel, he might be dodging some stones.

Those who believe in the Rapture know that no date can be set, it can happen anytime.

Another interesting factoid - The ground zero of dispensational premillennialism in the 20th Century was, arguably, Dallas Theol. Sem. DTS has virtually abandoned every distinctive of classical dispensationalism because the system as it matured and as many of its thinkers matured and as the peculiar sytem faced decade after decade of critique acknowledged - its exegesis was faulty, its hermeneutic untenable and finally most of the Dallas types acknowledged it. They hold to radically modified 'progressive dispensationalism' which looks alot like 'historic premillennialism' which looks an awful lot like many amillennialists save for the interpretation of the single passage that speaks of a millennium in Rev. 20. This news though has not filtred out into the pews where folks still listen to Van Impe, Camping, La Haye, Ice, etc, et.al.

Yes, Dallas and others have left Premillennial Dispensationalism for the false 'progressive' dispensationalism.

That is because they were never rooted in the inspiration of the Bible, but in long gone 'Originals'.

Not having the Bible as their final authority it was only a matter of time before they drifted into other heresies.

How can the premills here look forward to a rebuilt temple when Hebrews (apart from the rest of the New Testament and alot of prophetic hints and pointers in the OT) explicitly says that the temple and animal sacrifices are gone and worthless. There is absolutely NO ground in Scripture for offering the 'it will be a memorial' argument. There is no Scripture that suggests animal sacrifices in a rebuilt temple are warranted as a memorial for the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or in the new moon or of the sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come (Col.2:16-17)

Paul says these are things to come not have gone forever.

As scary as it may be to read articles dealing with prophetic texts that don't fit the mold of William Miller, Scofield, Darby, etc. - I suggest taking an honest look at some of the work available at http://www.bibleprophecy.com/ and http://www.preteristarchive.com/ and http://www.preterist.org/ You will see an optimistic alternative to the doomsday scenarios offered by folks such as Lindsey who make millions off their fictional books and, because they believe the end is near, live in poverty and give their money to missions, children's hospitals, etc..... No, sorry, rather Lindsey and the other false prophets take that money and invest it in the stock market, support ex-wiveS, etc. - for Jesus I'm sure.

Premillennialists have produced some of the best and greatest soul-winners (D.L Moody, Billy Sunday) along with the greatest emphasis on missionary activity.

Might I add, fortheDeclaration is a good illustration of why amills/postmills/prets/transmills must offer a zealous defense of the truth - because they pull the same crap as Democrats when they want to shut down discussion, debate and frighten potentially open minded folks on the sideline into running from the truth. But, unlike Democrats who might scream 'racist' or 'nazi' at Republicans and Libertarians, dispies pull out the old bromide of 'heretic' or 'false prophet' the moment they feel their fragile system is threatened.

The difference is that the scripture states that you are teaching a false doctrine.

Now, regarding the list that have above (Post,Amill,preterist, etc) you all cannot be right.

It is the preterist, the postmillennialist, the optimistic amillennialist who are preparing for the future - working, saving, investing, thinking long-term and looking to exert dominion and influence in order to transform our culture. Those in the 'culture of death' are going to die out. Those who are having large families, training their children in Biblical thinking, inculcating a full-orbed Christian worldview in them are going to transform the future for God. I am quite sure there are some premills who try, though not as successfully because of their presuppositions and eschatology, to do the same. But such activity (such as Falwell and Robertson participating in the political process and cultural debate) is as inconsistent as a Christian Scientist taking antibiotics or having double by-pass. They are, gladly, hedging their bets that their exegesis might not be spot on.

Any Premillennialist who thinks he is going to change anything has in practice rejected Premill.

That does not mean we are not to fulfill our responsibility to be good citizens (vote, jury duty, military) but we know that things are going to get worse not better, espically when the church is removed from the scene.

Blessings on the New Israel of God.

Even so, come Lord Jesus

Your #38)............Wow!..........Yes!..............BTTT

Amen and Amen!............................................Your# 38...GREAT COMMENTS! Maranatha!

"Any Premillennialist who thinks he is going to change anything has in practice rejected Premill."

How consistent. But, why then hang around FR? If you are going to be consistent then you ought to sit passively until your rapture, unconcerned with politics, cultural battles and so on. You and other premills are living on borrowed currency from historic amill/postmill thinking.

I thank you for your post. You have illustrated for me very well that wild-eyed KJV only, dispensational premill. position that is in steep decline.

If you are really interested in the answers to your questions, you need to go to http://www.swrb.com/ and visit Still Waters Revival Books and get ahold of some classic works on Zechariah and Revelation. Or, http://www.postmillennialism.com/ which has a number of excellent articles and books. I am quite sure you won't, but that is of course because your exegesis is faulty and fragile and liable to be destroyed with a little light from God's Word.

My hope is built on nothing less

Than Scofield notes and Moody Press