Historic Premillennialism

http://www.SoloChristo.com/ ^ | 09/21/02 |  Fred G. Zaspel

[PresbyRev]

For the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10 you might want to visit the second chapter of Acts, the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation among other loci in the NT and consider the textual and historical evidences for first century fulfillment. However, since the Church and the NT are plan B for dispies and you would rather be knee-deep in sheep blood living under the Law, you may want to avoid it.

[nate4one]

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers walking after their own lusts, and saying Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation (2Pe.3:3-4) Just as the Jews gave up looking for the Messiah in the 1st Advent, so the church has given up looking for Him in the 2nd (Titus 2:13)

Many of the fulfillments you claim PresbyRev and I to be a part of, already happened and are already quoted in scripture.
1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
1 John 2:18-19 18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.
Jude 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for THIS condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ...8 Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." 10 But these men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct as irrational animals do, they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error, and perish in Korah's rebellion. 12 These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they boldly carouse together, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, carried along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved for ever. 14 It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, 15 to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions." 19 It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;

Funny, this is a literal and quoted fulfillment of your verse almost word for word and it was in the first century.
Peter was written before 1 John or Jude!

That does not mean we are not to fulfill our responsibility to be good citizens (vote, jury duty, military) but we know that things are going to get worse not better, espically when the church is removed from the scene.

So you would really believe Christ would have you waste your time?
The world IS NOT getting worse.
1. Do the Indians still sacrifice their children?
2. Are there more saved today that ever in history?
3. Are wars as common and as brutal or are they just more visible with the invention of media?
4. Can you prove natural disasters are more common even though weather has only about a 150 years worth of documantation over the 4-6000 year history of the world?
5. Doesn't civilization, for the majority, improve life, limit disease and starvation, and improve the prospect of peacful living?
6. Would the world BE this civilized without the gospel?

"For God SO LOVED THE WORLD that He gave His only Son, that who would believe in Him would not die, but live forever!"
Um, this, along with the promise to Noah, etc, shows Gods love for THIS world. And you think that he would destroy it?

God created a New Covenant with man New Heavens and Earth) and because of that, He will NEVER destroy this world that HE SO LOVES!!

Your doomsdayism, to anyone with common sense, shows you believe Christ gave you a worthless and futile mission. Which makes Him a fool in the eyes of the world.

But we know the truth about your teaching.

[fortheDeclaration]

The world IS NOT getting worse.

The world is not getting worse?

Now that is funny!

This know also that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (1Tim.3:1-4)

That is the state of our world today.

If the world is becoming better, leave your house door unlocked or the keys in your car!

[fortheDeclaration]

1. Do the Indians still sacrifice their children?

No, but we do! (abortion, child slavery, molestion)

In fact, it was recently reported that the Hindus sacrificed 125 children.

The Chinese still murder female children and any child over the 'limit'

2. Are there more saved today that ever in history?

Are you kidding?

Who preaches the correct, unwatered down Gospel anymore? (Acts.16:31,1Cor.15:3-5)

3. Are wars as common and as brutal or are they just more visible with the invention of media?

We have had more wars in this century then in any other time in history and they are far more bloody.

When the church is gone, things will really get hot, with nuclear weapons, biological and chemical weapons being used in a vast level.

4. Can you prove natural disasters are more common even though weather has only about a 150 years worth of documantation over the 4-6000 year history of the world?

All the evidence points to that, espically with more earthquakes in all areas of the world.

5. Doesn't civilization, for the majority, improve life, limit disease and starvation, and improve the prospect of peacful living?

It doesn't change the heart which is wicked and will not change until Christ Himself comes and rules 'with a rod of iron' (Ps.2)

6. Would the world BE this civilized without the gospel?

In a far worse state, but most of the world rejects the Gospel as does even the US today.

Europe is a pagan as the rest of the world.

When the 'salt' is removed from the scene the World will move quickly to be ruled under the Anti-Christ, they do not want the God of heaven with His absolute Holiness, they want the 'form of Godliness' not the standards that it demands.

[fortheDeclaration]

For the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10 you might want to visit the second chapter of Acts, the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation among other loci in the NT and consider the textual and historical evidences for first century fulfillment. However, since the Church and the NT are plan B for dispies and you would rather be knee-deep in sheep blood living under the Law, you may want to avoid it.

Gee, it says that Christ destroys all the nations that come against Jerusalem in the verse before it,(vs.9) and that happened in Acts?

I thought the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus was the completion of prophecy, yet, Christ states He is going to save it!

You guys are in a state of self-delusion!

[fortheDeclaration]

"Any Premillennialist who thinks he is going to change anything has in practice rejected Premill." How consistent. But, why then hang around FR? If you are going to be consistent then you ought to sit passively until your rapture, unconcerned with politics, cultural battles and so on. You and other premills are living on borrowed currency from historic amill/postmill thinking.

Premill. do not care about 'culture' wars, we care about souls being saved and the truth being proclaimed.

I thank you for your post. You have illustrated for me very well that wild-eyed KJV only, dispensational premill. position that is in steep decline.

Ofcourse it is in decline, it was predicted that it would be (2Pet.3:3)

If you are really interested in the answers to your questions, you need to go to http://www.swrb.com/ and visit Still Waters Revival Books and get ahold of some classic works on Zechariah and Revelation. Or, http://www.postmillennialism.com/ which has a number of excellent articles and books. I am quite sure you won't, but that is of course because your exegesis is faulty and fragile and liable to be destroyed with a little light from God's Word.

Well, if the 'answers' that the amills have put forth on these threads are any indication of what those books contain, you are right, I will not waste my time with them (2Pet.3:16)

My hope is built on nothing less Than Scofield notes and Moody Press

My hope is built on the literal reading of prophecy which clearly states that Christ is coming back to set up a literal, physical kingdom.

That was the hope of the Church for the first two centuries, until they got in bed with the World and sold their birthright for a mess of pottage.

[nate4one]

Thank you for commenting on only the "objective" and unprovable opinion portion of my response.
Showing yourselves for the typical pessemists you are.

You clearly have no argument as to the pre AD 70 fulfillment of your passage used as a personal attack on PresbyRev.
Nor a good understanding of the basic intent as to John 3:16.

[nate4one]

I thought the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus was the completion of prophecy, yet, Christ states He is going to save it!
You guys are in a state of self-delusion!

Do not pretend to know our position and then try to prove it false on false pretenses.
The Church is the New Jerusalem and it was being attacked by those who could hurt it most. Those who FIRST had a Covenant with the Lord which He had since changed due to their rejection of His Son.
Mt 21:43 - Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

They were trying to decieve many into returning to Judaism based on the first covenant
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

The rest of Galatians defends the Gospel vs returning to Judaism. 1 John and Jude, which still have escaped your proper attention, confirm the goings on of this type or spiritual warfare.

[nate4one]

It is the preterist, the postmillennialist, the optimistic amillennialist who are preparing for the future

Funny how we see this yet the majority of post/amill's see us as the enemy as well.
I am convinced the preterist position, even with it's minor internal disagreements, is the only way for unity in the body.

How can unity come from a false understanding of our mission and purpose on this earth?

[marbren]

Do you like Arafat?

[fortheDeclaration]

I thought the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus was the completion of prophecy, yet, Christ states He is going to save it! You guys are in a state of self-delusion! Do not pretend to know our position and then try to prove it false on false pretenses. The Church is the New Jerusalem and it was being attacked by those who could hurt it most. Those who FIRST had a Covenant with the Lord which He had since changed due to their rejection of His Son.

You all do not have a position, you have a mishmash of utter nonsense!

And I will pour upon the house of David (Zech.12:10)

No one sane (or honest) could twist and distort clear scripture like you are doing!

Zechariah is speaking about racial/national Israel, not the Church!

Mt 21:43 - Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

And do you know what the kingdom of God is? It is a spiritual kingdom(Rom.14:17) while the Kingdom of Heaven (only mentioned in the book of Matthew) is a literal, physical Kingdom (Daniel 2:37,44)

They were trying to decieve many into returning to Judaism based on the first covenant Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

And when the Church is removed another Gospel will be preached by an Angel, and that Angel is not condemned for doing so (Rev.14:6) The rest of Galatians defends the Gospel vs returning to Judaism. 1 John and Jude, which still have escaped your proper attention, confirm the goings on of this type or spiritual warfare.

[maestro]

Your# 51)...........................Amen,....and,....AMEN!...................BTTT

[ksen]

I've got little time for passively accepting insults upon my honor and integrity.

Jesus Christ did.

[ksen]

- The ground zero of dispensational premillennialism in the 20th Century was, arguably, Dallas Theol. Sem. DTS has virtually abandoned every distinctive of classical dispensationalism....

Dr. Steve, is this true?

[ksen]

Thanks for the article Mom, it looks like nobody wants to tackle the meat of it though.

[drstevej]

***DTS has virtually abandoned every distinctive of classical dispensationalism....***

Dallas Seminary's doctrinal statement contradicts this assertion. Read articles 5, 8 & 18-21.

We believe that all who are united to the risen and ascended Son of God are members of the church which is the body and bride of Christ, which began at Pentecost and is completely distinct from Israel. Art. VIII

We believe that three of these dispensations or rules of life are the subject of extended revelation in the Scriptures, viz., the dispensation of the Mosaic Law, the present dispensation of grace, and the future dispensation of the millennial kingdom. We believe that these are distinct and are not to be intermingled or confused, as they are chronologically successive. Art. V

We believe that the translation of the church will be followed by the fulfillment of Israel’s seventieth week (Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1–19:21) during which the church, the body of Christ, will be in heaven. The whole period of Israel’s seventieth week will be a time of judgment on the whole earth, at the end of which the times of the Gentiles will be brought to a close. Article XIX.

++++++++

This doctrinal statement, to my knowledge, has not changed since I was a student [1972-1976].

I would ask PresbyRev, asuming this was his statement, to substantiate it in light of the officially stated doctrinal statement. Define and illustrate "abandon" and "distinctive" in the statement, PresbyRev.

[drstevej]

***They hold to radically modified 'progressive dispensationalism' ***

Darrell Bock and whom else on the faculty? Craig Blaising is now at SWBTS.

Why don't you email Lanier Burns, Chair and Senior Professor of Systematic Theology who has taught there for 20 years if your statement is true. I can provide the email address if you like.

[ksen]

Thanks Dr. Steve.

[nate4one]

And do you know what the kingdom of God is? It is a spiritual kingdom(Rom.14:17) while the Kingdom of Heaven (only mentioned in the book of Matthew) is a literal, physical Kingdom (Daniel 2:37,44)

Oh yea. I forgot Christ made the distinguishment between the two? It couldn't possibly be that Matthews audience (Hebrews) understood "Kingdom of God" as being the "Kingdom of heaven."
Nope, there must be a difference even though the SCRIPTURE does not declare one!!!

Your dispensationalism has you holding to physical hopes which will disappoint.
The Jews could not see the spiritual applications and truth of their messiah, and you cannot see them of His promises.
When you die disappointed, ask Him why He did not come back before you died.
He will tell you He did!

[PresbyRev]

A quick response: You may try reading the Zondervan published 'Four Views of Revelation' books which presents both the 'Classical' and 'Progressive' Dispie views and the authors admit in the text that times they are a'changing at Dallas and elsewhere. Irregardless of what the statement of faith may or may not say, faculty, professors and students can subscribe to such with crossed fingers. What Dallas is producing today are not more Walvoords and Ryries. Further, for more documentation on the collapse of classical dispensationalism at DTS and elsewhere, you may wish to purchase or download (for free) "House Divided: The Breakup of Dispensational Theology" by Bahnsen and Gentry. You can get the print friendly PDF version at http://www.freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/21e_47e.htm. I apologize for any delay in my response, phone lines in our part of WV are not the best and I've been offline for about 20 hours.

Below see the description of the text. In it you will find some of the rubber-meets-the-road abandonment of old style dispensationalism by its most vocal adherents and various refs. to the changes that have happened and are afoot at DTS.

New Hope For Christians Who Are Ready For A Change

The year 2001 will bring a new millennium: the seventh after the creation and the third after the birth of Jesus Christ. This is the greatest opportunity for evangelism in world history. In less than a dozen years, the world will change drastically. Will it be for the better or the worse? Dispensationalist automatically answer: "Worse!" But their system is in deep trouble. The year 1988 marked the beginning of dispensationalism's "great tribulation": the Rapture did not take place. It was supposed to (actually, it should have taken place in 1981: 1988 - 7 = 1981). The nation of Israel was founded in May of 1948. Forty years constitutes one generation in the Bible, and 1988 was supposed to complete "the generation of the fig tree." Mr. Whisenant's book gave the world 88 reasons why the Rapture would take place in September, 1988, and (he says) over four million copies were printed. People believed!

I didn't happen. Fooled again. And a lot of Christians vowed: Never again! (How about you?).

Meanwhile, the intellectual movement known as Christian Reconstruction was spreading rapidly in dispensational circles. Spokesmen for the dispensational camp in 1988 concluded that dispensationlism's forty-year tactic of the academic black-out could no longer work. They would have to respond publicly to the Reconstructionists' detailed published criticisms of the dispensationalist system. They would have to refute the Reconstructionists' claim that God's Old Testament civil laws are still valid for society and that there is a bright future ahead for Christianity before Jesus returns.

Four dispensational authors responded as an unofficial team. Their three books appeared in rapid succession: Dominion Theology: Blessing or Curse?, by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice; Whatever Happened to Heaven?, by Dave Hunt; and The Road to Holocaust, by Hal Lindsey. The arguments of all three books are answered in detail by House Divided. What House Divided demonstrates is that dispensational theology has now been shattered by its own defenders. They are not willing to defend the original system and their drastic modifications have left it a broken shell. They are also deeply divided among themselves on the crucial questions of biblical interpretation and social activism. In short, today's defenders of dispensationalism "destroyed the system in order to save it." No one has attempted to put this shattered theological system back together. No one will even outline its main points.

If House Divided is correct, then by then year 2001, we could see a very different church in the United States and on the world mission field. The question of the hour is: What kind of church? An optimistic, victorious church on the march for Jesus, or one huddled in a corner, not knowing what it believes any more?

Which church do you believe in? If you are tired of being in the corner, tired of waiting around for the Rapture that doesn't come, read House Divided. It offers new hope to Christians...if they are ready to get out of the corner and get to work.

Inside Flap

Catalog Description

In 1988 and 1989, three books were published that criticized the theology of Christian Reconstructionism, and also the theology of the entire historic Christian faith, by attacking the idea of Christian social reform. They were Dominion Theology: Blessing or Curse?, by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice: Whatever Happened to Heaven?, by Dave Hunt; and The Road to Holocaust, by Hal Lindsey. The arguments of all three books are answered in detail by House Divided, with Greg Bahnsen taking up the question of biblical law, and Kenneth Gentry taking up the question of biblical eschatology. What this book demonstrates is that dispensational theology has now been shattered by its own defenders. They are no longer willing to defend the original system, and their drastic modifications have left it a broken shell.