Posted on 12/29/2002 5:38:32 AM PST by NYer
I agree that we wouldn't be saved without exercising faith in Jesus, but the Bible tells us that "while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us." So the Grace was already there to be accessed by our faith.
We don't need to continue exercising faith, i.e. in the Sacraments, in order to continue accessing God's Grace.
<> I was just trying to get at the point that even our response has to be first conditioned by Grace. We don't begin of our own volition absent Grace, but we must co-operate with Grace to be Saved<>
It's on again and off again with me, as the schedule allows :)
So you got scripture that says you are saved by the sacraments?
1 Peter 3:20-21: "In that ark a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water. It's counterpart Baptism, now saves you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience after God),through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ who is at the right hand of God, swallowing up death that we might be made heirs of eternal life."
Your way of law keeping you save yourself..Jesus does not save you..
This is a misconception, and I hope I can demonstrate it with a little thought experiment. Suppose I, as a Catholic, kept all the precepts of the Church and participated scrupulously in all the sacraments, BUT Christ had not redeemed us. Would my "keeping of the law" as you call it, save me?
The answer is resoundingly, emphatically, absolutely NO. My law-keeping would have been as useless (in a salvific sense) as the Mosaic Law for the Jews. Christ's action is what gives the sacraments their power. It is all his doing, in Catholic theology, and not ours.
Claud do you believe that Baptism saves ? Are Mormons and JW's saved? What about the Armstrong folks they all believe in baptism..and that it saves ..just like you
I tend to agree with the reformers that believe the ark was a 'type" of Christ
From Gill
The ark was a type of Christ, into whom whoever enters by faith, or in whom whoever believes, shall be saved; but as they that entered into the ark were but few, so are those that enter in at the strait gate, or believe in Christ; and they that went into the ark were saved by the water bearing up the ark, even by that by which others were destroyed; as the very same thing, for different reasons, is the cause or means of destruction and salvation; so Christ is set, for the fall and rising of many, is a stumblingblock to some, and the power and wisdom of God to others; and the Gospel, and the ministers of it, are the savour of life unto life to some, and the savour of death unto death to others. This instance of the dispensation of the providence of God to the old world is very appropriately, though by way of digression, introduced by the apostle; showing, that in times past, as then, God's usual method has been to afford the outward means to ungodly men, and to bear with them long, and then bring down his vengeance upon them, and save his own people; and this suffering saints might depend upon would be their case, and therefore should bear their afflictions patiently.
Matthew 28:19 Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age
Notice that the baptism comes AFTER not before conversion
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Did Christ redeem you or simply make your salvation possible?
I do believe Baptism saves, following 1 Peter: "Baptism now saves you also." We understand that to mean that it is Christ who saves through Baptism, just as it was God who saved through the ark or me who saved you through the life preserver.
As to the Mormons and JW's it is my understanding that their baptisms are invalid because they do not use the correct Trinitarian form. I would not second guess the mercy of God however; it is theoretically *possible* for the unbaptized to be saved, but the Church does not know any means other than the sacrament she was given to do that. It would be an act of extraordinary divine intervention, and not the ordinary means.
Did Christ redeem you or simply make your salvation possible?
All of the above.
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