HAULED ABOARD THE ARK (Advancing Prot./Cath. Discussion)

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/hauled-aboard.htm ^ | Peter Kreeft

[NYer]

I was taught what C. S. Lewis calls "mere Christianity," essentially the Bible. But no one reads the Bible as an extraterrestrial or an angel; our church community provides the colored glasses through which we read, and the framework, or horizon, or limits within which we understand.

[NYer]

If the Catholic Church teaches "another gospel" of salvation by works, then it teaches fundamental heresy. I found here however another case of misunderstanding. I read in Aquinas' Summa on grace, and the decrees of the Council of Trent, and found them just as strong on grace as Luther or Calvin. I was overjoyed to find that the Catholic Church had read the Bible too!

Any Summa readers in the forum?

[lockeliberty]

But I find, incredibly, that 9 out of 10 Catholics do not know this, the absolutely central, core, essential dogma of Christianity. Protestants are right: most Catholics do in fact believe a whole other religion. Well over 90% of students I have polled who have had 12 years of catechism classes, even Catholic high schools, say they expect to go to Heaven because they tried, or did their best, or had compassionate feelings to everyone, or were sincere. They hardly ever mention Jesus. Asked why they hope to be saved, they mention almost anything except the Savior.

Quite an indictment on your church. Nearly all Catholics I know believe they are saved by sacraments and good works.

[NYer]

I am happy as a child to follow Christ's vicar on earth everywhere he leads. What he loves, I love; what he leaves, I leave; where he leads, I follow. For the Lord we both adore said to Peter his predecessor, "Who hears you, hears Me." That is why I am a Catholic: because I am a Christian.

Thank you for introducing me to Peter Kreeft!

I have noticed a common theme from reeding Peter Kreeft, Scott Hahn and listening to other converts on Journey Home. In nearly all instances, these individuals were theology students with probing minds. They accepted the teachings provided in their theological studies but were always asking one more question. In the case of Scott Hahn, I believe his decision resulted from reading the Church Fathers. Here it was Thomas Aquinas.

I don't see much response from the Calvinists or other protestants in this forum. Perhaps, that is because they are not theology students or are satisfied with what they have been taught.

[Desdemona]

(When God saw that the Church in America lacked persecutions, he sent them liturgists.)

BUMP!

[NYer]

But if Catholic dogma contradicted Scripture or itself at any point, I could not believe it. I explored all the cases of claimed contradiction and found each to he a Protestant misunderstanding.

Quite an indictment on yours.

[Desdemona]

Great post. Thank you.

[Wrigley]

The problem explained in #4 is much much worse. Unless you don't have a problem with people working to save themselves. (An impossible and damning task.)

[NYer]

I have been happy as a Catholic for many years now. The honeymoon faded, of course, but the marriage has deepened. Like all converts I ever have heard of, I was hauled aboard not by those Catholics who try to "sell" the church by conforming it to the spirit of the times by saying Catholics are just like everyone else, but by those who joyfully held out the ancient and orthodox faith in all its fullness and prophetic challenge to the world. The minimalists, who reduce miracles to myths, dogmas to opinions, laws to values, and the Body of Christ to a psycho-social dub, have always elicited wrath, pity, or boredom from me. So has political partisanship masquerading as religion.

Perhaps you didn't read the post all the way through.

[Cleburne]

I sympathize with the author's feelings of Catholicity from within Protestantism. I am quite medieval in bent myself, and read a Kempis, Rolle, and the like, and greatly admire Chesterton, Tolkien, and Hopkins, Catholics all. I have a taste for beauty in worship, and structure and liturgy, and respect history and tradition.

However, unlike the author, I have been unable to reconcile many of the positions of the Catholic Church with what I hold to be true. While the core of Catholic teaching might be construed as right, there is enough I feel that is wrong that is added on to it. I suppose I admire her more for her "essences" and some of her sons than for her structure and for many of her doctrines.

Which is to say, I am rather like an atheist who enjoys the Bible for its poetry- though, I should like to think, I respect enough of what the Catholic Church has offered to put myself in a postion higher than that. But I disagree with enough, and see little hope of reconcillation on my part, that I imagine I am firmly within Protestant tradition.

[Wrigley]

But I find, incredibly, that 9 out of 10 Catholics do not know this, the absolutely central, core, essential dogma of Christianity. Protestants are right: most Catholics do in fact believe a whole other religion. Well over 90% of students I have polled who have had 12 years of catechism classes, even Catholic high schools, say they expect to go to Heaven because they tried, or did their best, or had compassionate feelings to everyone, or were sincere. They hardly ever mention Jesus. Asked why they hope to be saved, they mention almost anything except the Savior.

So you aren't at all concerned that there must be something incorrect with what the RC church is teaching if 90% believe that "...they expect to go to Heaven because they tried, or did their best, or had compassionate feelings to everyone, or were sincere. Or that, "They hardly ever mention Jesus.

I wouldn't be surprised that these same RCs would say that praying to Mary helps, too.

[Desdemona]

The author mentions that so few of us youngin's really know what the faith teaches and is about. And he is absolutely correct. Slowly, in the last few months that revelation has dawned. But through the Bible and the Catechism in tandem, the writings of the great theologians, prayer and devotions, and more recently, the Liturgy of the Hours (albeit, an abridged, all-purpose edition) that, at least for me, is being corrected. There's a long way to go, though. But nothing is impossible with God.

Thanks again.

[NYer]

Protestant bump!

[Desdemona]

These were falacies taught in the 70's, 80's and 90's in the feel-good era of Catholicism. (I was a victim of it. Trust me) Truthfully, we have a lot of work to do in the Catechism department. It's just a matter of pushing in the right direction.

[NYer]

The author mentions that so few of us youngin's really know what the faith teaches and is about. And he is absolutely correct.

That holds true for ... as the author pointed out ... 90% of catholics. Young, old ... doesn't make a difference, especially among cradle catholics who follow the leader in all that is taught.

With 12 years of catholic school education, I believed that I had a good handle on my faith. And then, in my first major job, I was assigned to a manager who was a Mormon. At that point, reality kicked in. It wasn't until I tapped into this forum and turned the TV to EWTN that I truly began to learn about my catholic faith.

Peter Kreeft says it well ....

Like all converts I ever have heard of, I was hauled aboard not by those Catholics who try to "sell" the church by conforming it to the spirit of the times by saying Catholics are just like everyone else, but by those who joyfully held out the ancient and orthodox faith in all its fullness and prophetic challenge to the world. The minimalists, who reduce miracles to myths, dogmas to opinions, laws to values, and the Body of Christ to a psycho-social dub, have always elicited wrath, pity, or boredom from me. So has political partisanship masquerading as religion.

[Jael]

What a very sad story.

2 Corinthians 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

[Desdemona]

I thought I had a good handle on it too. And then I discovered all of you....