HAULED ABOARD THE ARK (Advancing Prot./Cath. Discussion)

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/hauled-aboard.htm ^ | Peter Kreeft

[RnMomof7]

The Holy Spirit left the Catholic church at the council of Trent when it denied and cursed the word of God..Just look at the fruit



The Council of Trent

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

God's Word:

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; He who does not believe is judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." NASB

Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised Him form the dead, you will be saved". NASB

Romans 10:13 "It shall be whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved." NASB

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no man can boast". NASB

1 Peter 2:24 "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His stripes we are healed' NASB

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life". NASB
The Council of Trent

Canon 18. If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let him be anathema.

You cannot get to heaven trying to keep the 10 commandments because you will fail at some point.

God's Word:

Galatians 2:20-21 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." NASB

Galations 3:10-13 "For as many are under the works of the Law are under a curse, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law to perform them". Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for the righteous shall live by faith. However the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree". NASB

Galatians 3:21-26 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be!! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." NASB

The Council of Trent

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,[2] though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.

God's Word:

Three tenses of the verb saved:

1. Been saved -- the believer has been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin (Luke 7:50; Acts 16:30-21; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 1:9).

2. Being saved -- The believer is being saved from the habit, power and dominion of sin (Romans 6:1-14; Philippians 1:19, 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Romans 8;2; Galatians 2:20, 4:19; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

3. To be saved -- The believer is to be saved. This is the glorification process in which we are changed into the image of Jesus. (Romans 13:11; Hebrews 10:36; 1 Peter 1:5).

The Council of Trent

Canon 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism[9] and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,[10] let him be anathema.

Water baptism is just an outward expression of our faith. We want to tell the world about our faith in Jesus. In the days of Jesus, that was a death sentence. However water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Check out John 4:2, 1 Corinthians 1:13-17, baptism was not a concern to Jesus or Paul. The problem with infant baptism is that babies cannot make a commitment to Christ at that tender age.

The baptism that a believer in Jesus will receive is with the Holy Spirit. Read what Jesus says: Acts 1:5 "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now". Also in Acts 11:6 This is the baptism that saves a person in 1 Peter 3:21.

God's Word:
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." NASB

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." NASB

1. The thief on the cross was not baptized but he went to heaven. Luke 23:43

2. Jesus did not baptize. John 4:2

3. Paul stressed the importance of preaching the gospel rather than baptizing. 1 Corinthians 1:17

[Maximilian]

A wonderful summary of Faith AND Works (not Faith vs. Works). Reading through these quotes makes the issue so crystal clear. Did you patch this together yourself, or did you find this somewhere?

[RnMomof7]

Protestant BUMP..Hey especially all you Dutch Reform Calvin College guys:>)..You know who you are

[Maximilian]

However, unlike the author, I have been unable to reconcile many of the positions of the Catholic Church with what I hold to be true.

You sound intelligent, informed and sincere. I hope you are willing to share more information about the Catholic positions that you find incompatible with Christianity. Please believe that I am not trying to be antagonistic in any way.

[Wrigley]

Trying to blow my cover? :-)

Oh, wait I just did.

[the_doc]

Just goes to show that some Calvinists aren't regenerate, IMO.

[drstevej]

A confession???

:0)

[the_doc]

No, a warning.

[RnMomof7]

This is from a Scott Hahn article and worth repeating
 
Hahn’s defection is one of several similar defections. They are occurring, not because Rome is a true church, but because of the apostasy of "Protestantism." The largest American Protestant denominations are either unbelieving or unknowing, priding themselves on their rejection of Scripture, their vacuous faith, or their limited knowledge.

Many smaller denominations and independent churches are in little better condition. They are largely Arminian – which is semi-Romanist already, believing in man’s free will; revivalist – which is informed by Roman Catholic experientialism; or charismatic – which continues Rome’s theology of miracles and gifts. American "Protestantism" is mostly Roman Catholic already.

Some of the more conservative churches have been led astray by Reconstructionism, by religiously cooperative efforts in the anti-abortion movement, by programs of social and political reform. Just when the preaching of the Gospel is most urgently needed, it is rarely heard in "Protestant" pulpits. It is doubtful that most graduates of theological schools could give a clear and accurate summary of the Gospel.

Doc ...many will say Lord Lord..One thing about Calvinists we KNOW that all that say they are regenerate are not..so we are never surprised

[drstevej]

Can a dispensationalist be a Christian, IYO?

[the_doc]

Sure.

But a lot of them are lost. Wait and see.

[Maximilian]

Yours was an excellent and informative post. But to me it seems that you are only looking at one side of each argument. We cannot take "proof texts" out of context and ignore the entire testimony of Scripture.

The Holy Spirit left the Catholic church at the council of Trent when it denied and cursed the word of God..

So you believe that the Holy Spirit was with the Church up until the Council of Trent? Please note that the Council of Trent took place AFTER the Protestant reformation. So how could the reformation have been justified if the Holy Spirit was still with the Catholic Church?

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The issue has never been whether we are justified by faith. The issue is whether we are justified by faith ALONE. Post 22 listed many quotes from Scripture that say "faith without works is dead." Jesus separates the sheep from the goats based on their works. Scripture shows BOTH SIDES. Don't we need to accept the word of God in Scripture?

Regarding baptism, the Catholic Church teaches that there can be baptism of water, blood and desire. Baptism of water is, of course, the ORDINARY means, as it is in all protestant churches. But Catholics have never ignored the story of the good thief on the cross, as well as the many early martyrs who died for the faith before they had a chance to be baptized. I don't see any reason why this should be a point of contention.

[RnMomof7]

I agree with you on this. I mentioned this once to drstevej, and meant it as, (and hope he took it as) a compliment when I said that it seemed many converts to Catholicism were so intelligent and learned,using reason as much as faith, and many Catholics who leave the Church for other denominations are looking for something easier than Catholicism.

...You can never save yourself Sandy..not mass, not communion, not fasting or good works..not by doing burn time in purgatory ...Jesus Christ saves..You, without realizing it point out why there will be so many unsaved Catholics at the end..your works of the law will not benefit you...Trust Christ..Repent and Believe

[drstevej]

Probably a lot of lost amils too.

[NYer]

see post #22

[RnMomof7]

You assume that Luther ever wanted to Leave..He was attempting to reform not leave.

We all try and fail..we have an ever patient God..we can deny him and He will still use us...But in the end the church denied the Holy Spirit..and CURSED those that clung to him.

You belong to a church that justifies itself with the James quote..but it is a misreading of the James to serve its purpose..Faith that has no works is non saving dead faith...The salvation does not come from the works..the works come from the salvation...there will in the end many that will call Lord Lord..and He will say "I never knew you"

[the_doc]

No doubt about that. A lot of amills are Sadducees, just as a lot of dispies are Pharisees.

[drstevej]

Interesting, I'll have to think about the comparisons.

[RnMomof7]

My Trent response was for that post...NYer..Faith and works always go together..that is because faith never stand alone. It always brings works with it ..But works do not bring faith in Gods grace with them ...it brings faith in self

You do not believe you are saved by Gods grace..Trent curses people for that ..you believe you are saved by Gods grace + your works..that damns not saves

[NYer]

Hahn’s defection is one of several similar defections. They are occurring, not because Rome is a true church, but because of the apostasy of "Protestantism.

Please!! Give credit where it is due. Scott Hahn is an intelligent man who has invested a lifttime in studying theology. How spurious of you to suggest that he, and other Divinity students, have defecteded due to a lack of proper preaching in the various Protestant religions. If anything, they themselves preached from the pulpit but could not account for the gaping holes in the Protestant bible.